Trial, Week 10: Summary - September 24


WEEK 10: SEPTEMBER 23 - 27, 1996

   * Day 44: Monday, September 23            * Day 47: Thursday, September 26
   * Day 45: Tuesday, September 24           * Day 48: Friday, September 27
   * Day 46: Wednesday, September 25


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

LB - reports on Ray Watson's notes. There is a logistics problem. Watson has put everything in storage and no one would be able to find it and he may not be able to find it either. He's not even sure if he made notes regarding that date (Sept. 11). Watson would be going up to area for a court matter on Oct. 4. LB had asked Watson what he saw on Sept. 11 and Watson confirmed that he had seen two people in the water and had seen what he thought was a shoulder holster on one of them.

LB also mentions a scheduling problem and suggests that four days be set aside around Thanksgiving as a break for everyone from the proceedings. J asks him to canvass idea with Defense.

MA - would like Crown to update Defense regarding witnesses that are on the list, but that have been missed. J asks him to discuss this with the Crown.

Jury in. Cpl. Gary Mercer (GM) back on witness stand.

ST - On morning of Sept. 11, when he was in forward observation area, he saw two people. GM says that two people were in the intersection for about 10 minutes. ST says that there were a lot of different sightings in the radio log during this time period. GM agrees. ST wonders if there were two fixed wing aircraft operating at one time, but GM isn't sure. GM recalls that Eye in the Sky was referred to as Wescam on the radio. GM never heard of anyone being referred to as "Cammo" as a code name.

GM saw person doing exercises at intersection, what he estimated to be push-ups. ST reads from the radio log that there is a "sighting by G1 to F2 - 150 metres south on Lion, to Tiger." This is around 10:00 a.m. Reference to two friendlies on road. Transmission: "They'll be compromised by your sitings." ST suggests that the two persons that GM spotted were police who, being bored, took off their shirts and hot "beasts" and did push-ups on the road. GM doesn't think so. When ST asks if GM knew that there was a problem with officers sun tanning, GM smiles and shakes his head. GM: "That's news to me." GM says that he's sure that persons he saw were not involved with his ERT team.

GM took a break at 12:14 p.m. He can't recall when he returned to duty, but does recall that he heard on radio from Eye in the Sky that camp members were loading water bottles into the red truck. ST suggests that GM must have had a half hour or hour for lunch. GM explains that since there was only one duty there to do, if people at forward observation area were comfortable, the others just sat around on their butt. GM: "If you want to call that an extended lunch break, fine."

GM not certain of the radio transmissions he heard, but remembers that there was word that the truck was being loaded with buckets. GM remembers no transmissions from forward observation area from the time trucks were loaded with buckets to the time the truck was blown up. Does remember transmissions from Eye in the Sky. ST says that Insp. Kembel at Zulu was speaking to the troops. GM says "GR3" is Marsh, Hodgkin or ?. ST reads from radio log of person saying to "take driver down", but GM can't recall hearing this.

13:16 - Zulu says truck can only be taken at Percy's lease. GM remembers that the plan to arrest people at the watering hole was called off on the 11th. ST says this is consistent because there was no one from the ERT team near the watering hole. GM agrees there was no one forward of the forward observation post.

GM says the "Dream Team" referred to in the radio log is Vancouver ERT. He says this with a knowing smile.

ST reads from radio log. There is a note that passenger in truck is different from the person spotted earlier. ST reads from radio log fifteen minutes leading up to the explosion. GM recalls the part where the red truck heads north before heading south. Says that at this point, he remembered actually hearing the truck and his attention focused on that. ST notes that there is no transmission from the forward observation area regarding the red truck. GM says he isn't surprised because they would just be repeating what Eye in the Sky was saying. GM doesn't recall if Marsh, Duplantie or ? said anything about the truck. ST suggests that GM doesn't recall this because it didn't happen or else it would be in the log. GM: "Okay."

GM says that following the explosion, he never went up to the truck itself. Almost immediately, he began his track. Says that as soon as he heard that the truck was vacant, he knew he would be tracking the people, so he left his fanny pack and M-16 with another officer. This took about two minutes from explosion to beginning of tracking. Spent 30 minutes or so tracking through bush. He heard bee sounds overhead and less than five minutes later, saw blue car doing donut and taking off. Says that his radio wire popped out on the run a couple of times and he had to keep plugging it in.

ST continues reading from log. 14:00 blows. 14:06 set up other ambush. "F2" says blue car firing. 14:09 suspect aiming across lake. 14:12 car heading west on Lion. ST says that from explosion to time car left, time was only 12 minutes. ST points out that this clarifies for the jury how time and distance is changed when under stress. GM agrees that time and distance was half of what he testified to. He isn't surprised by this.

Agrees that Bison pulled up and then heard gunfire and saw splashes to side of two people in lake. Then Bison left and GM says that sometime in the next half hour, it was disabled. 14:20 is time in log when Bison is disabled. It was only seven minutes after Bison left the lakeshore when it was disabled. GM is not surprised to hear this.

ST wonders where Cst. Arthur was in relation to GM. GM says group was in two groups behind two logs. Distance was only 20 feet away from two groups. They didn't use radios to speak to each other. ST wonders if Watson was with him. He doesn't remember him, but says that there was an extra guy with them. He names people with him from Vancouver ERT.

GM remembers blond person moving along lakefront and crossing the fence. Says he felt person with red on scapula (back) was the same one he saw in the lake. GM says that he only saw one person on north side of lake near the fence.

GW - GM agrees that when he saw people at intersection, he could not identify them. GM doesn't know who checked the truck out nor what this person did with the weapons and the equipment at the time. They took cover as instructed because of the flying stones. GM doesn't know how far the battery was blown from the truck.

He confirms that the first thing the dog picked up was the banana clip a hundred yards down the track. GW asks if a person urinates in the bush, whether that would leave a strong scent. GM agrees. GW puts forth a scenario. He suggests that the night before, when the RCMP was camped out, an officer could have come out and urinated and left his gloves there. GM says this isn't possible when the dog is on a track.

GW asks if the dog can distinguish between RCMP and another person's scent. GM agrees that the dog can't. GW suggests that officers could have been in the area the day before or earlier. GM says that's possible, but denies that the effects the dogs found were an officer's effects. Agrees that he never saw the people drop a banana clip, gloves or a shirt. Agrees that he can't say where the 30 officers had gone the night before.

After the dog led him to the lake, he saw the blue car. Says there was at least two people at the car.

Later, GM says he saw a person go through a fence and shortly after, officers began firing. GW asks if he knew that they were firing into the no-shoot zone. GM remembers hearing this after the 11th, but recalled it was called a "safe zone" for the camp. He was told in a briefing before work by maybe Insp. Kembel, but says he doesn't know what the boundaries were. Can't even say what the boundaries are now. Thinks the safe zone was created after the 11th as a result of the shooting that day. Wasn't informed of zone prior to the 11th.

When Caucasian person came out of the bush, GM says that he saw red which he presumed to be blood. He confirms that he never saw individual point a weapon at him. He says he couldn't see the front of the person, so can't say for sure if person was armed or not. Agrees that the person headed back in the general direction of the camp. Agrees that the person might be in shock depending on how hard he was hit. Agrees that being shot is like being physically hit.

DC - GM wonders if he should sit down in the witness box. DC: "As you will. You should be comfortable." GM: "It's like round four." Jury laughs. GM confirms that rank in ERT means nothing. GM remembers that his radio seemed to be one of the few radios that worked. He was both on track and in communication with Command.

GM wasn't aware that bullet pulled out of Suniva's arm was a hollow point. He says that he mixes hollow points with hard points and also has tracer rounds. Says there is no set policy in ERT. GM says that they use hard points to deal with body armour. He agrees that the point of shooting is to kill someone and says hollow points are the best for this. He's not aware that the Canadian military doesn't use hollow points because it's against the Geneva Code.

Regarding his statement, GM agrees that he said that between the information he was getting from Wescam, the observation point, and his own memory, it was getting difficult to discern between them all. DC speaks about a phenomena called "the fog of war", in which it is difficult to figure out what is going on. DC suggests that GM wasn't only speaking of having difficulty remembering whether person had a pink shirt on or around the waist, but that he was referring to everything he saw and heard that day. GM claims he was only having difficulty with the pink shirt and the rest of his memory is clear. DC looks at his statement and reads from where GM speaks of waiting for the Bisons and bullets flying. GM agrees that at this time, as he put in his statement, "that whole time was becoming a bit of a blur." GM claims this was only in reference to when they were being shot at.

DC suggests that the radio transmissions at 10:00 a.m. were not chaotic at this time, but were orderly. GM says they were never orderly. He adds that he also had two people next to him using binoculars, also giving him information. GM claims he is certain when he sees something and is honest when his memory is vague. "When I say I've seen something, I'm a hundred percent certain I saw it."

Says that he didn't have binoculars during the track, but as soon as team got into shallows, someone gave him a set of binoculars from their fanny pack because his hands were free as he wasn't carrying his M-16.

DC reads from statement that he saw person with red on body moving slowly with his hand outstretched like he was asking for help. GM says that he would have told members around him of what he was watching. Told Zulu later.

Reference to "bad guys" is used by ERT as is "perps" or "unfriendlies". GM thought the person that was attached to Vancouver ERT that day may have been a dog handler from Nelson ERT.

He never heard of the name Watson. He never saw a shoulder holster on the blond person. Says he would have told the team had he seen anything like this. GM is certain that the people were naked from waist up. He saw their hands go up when Bison came up. They moved west and headed into scrub brush. They exited brush carrying weapons, but never fired weapons - then lost sight of them. Later, saw one of them, the blond, near the foxholes. Never once did he see blond stand in a firing position in any manner. He then remembers the team firing at the person. He doesn't remember anyone giving the order to open fire. He believes both groups were firing in that direction.

Later he heard a woman was shot. He would probably expect her to wear a top if she wanted to. Agrees that the top may look like a shoulder holster. DC asks then if the woman may have been shot because she wore a sport bra. J says this is a submission for the jury.

MA - MA: "I've only got a few questions for you." GM: "Thank you." Jury laughs. First time in area was on Aug. 27 for a briefing in Kamloops. Four teams (50-60 people) were briefed by Bravner, Moulton, Olfert, Gates, etc. Doesn't believe Hall was there. Lasted an hour and a half until there was a report from 100 Mile House of officers being shot at. Had originally planned to have briefing that day, practice session the next day, and then they were going to go in and clear out the camp. He never got a copy of an Operational Plan. He never saw a tape recorder or a videographer at the briefings. He saw people taking notes, but he didn't. They never got into meat of briefing before it was interrupted and they were cleared out. Understood there was a court order to enforce. Says that he understood that the group at Gustafsen Lake was a radical, native group. Wilby spoke, as did some other members.

There was a plan to snatch people from watering hole on Sept. 11. GM says yellow dog is buried 50 feet on east side of road from where it came to rest.

When Bison was pulled up in front of swimmers, he saw two splashes near them. Four people with him were Arthur, Duplantie, Shinkaruk and unidentified members. Armstrong joined him later at trees. Agrees that the water was calm when he saw the two splashes 75 feet in front of swimmers. Later, with laser binoculars, he saw that the distance from his position at point on east side of lake to fence on north side was 400 metres. Says the splashes were west of the swimmers. GM: "Bullets were tossed in front of them." He only recalls two shots being fired.

He agrees that this was more like a military operation than an ERT operation.

When he saw people come out of bushes, he made sighting himself of them carrying rifles. Wasn't using binoculars. Agrees that at that distance, they could have been carrying sticks. He never saw the two people firing at Bison or firing at all. Doesn't recall anyone giving order to fire.

GM doesn't recall who was standing next to him. Says there were seven or eight people around him. Didn't count how many bullets were being fired and at one time, he finally pulled dog back because he was snapping at the other officers.

GM agrees that the geography at Gustafsen Lake is like a bowl with everything sloping into the lake. Agrees that on the 11th, it would be difficult to tell where any of the gunfire was coming from. He believes most of the team was firing, but isn't sure how many times they fired. He then saw the red on the person. GM believed at the time that the person had been hit. He doesn't know if the other members knew person was hit. He never spoke to them about it at the time.

MA shows GM Hall's document and map of safe zone. GM had never seen this document. He says he heard about zone from Armstrong, but isn't sure what date that was. Believes that he saw the zone on a wall at 100 Mile House where the troops get together. Says the document that he read was similar to this one. When GM went for a walk around the lake area after the standoff, he noticed many holes in the trees. He points to area on aerial photo around Bison area where he observed the holes. He says he looked at a tree with a hole through it and remembered that he had been hiding behind trees like that.

During chief examination, GM said that the general rule is not to take the initiative. MA suggests that on the 11th, this rule was abandoned. GM says that they had followed the plan of blowing up the truck and their attempt to arrest the occupants. MA wonders about the seven people firing at the person. GM agrees the person posed no threat to him or his team. Says they weren't trying to kill the person, they were only trying to stop him.

L/ LB - Next witness (#42): Warrant Officer Steven Bidwell (SB) - Warrant officer working out of Hamilton, Ontario. In army for 18 years. Was in Calgary from '93 to '96. Aug. 25, SB was at an O (Orders) Group where he learned the army was to venture to B.C. and assist the RCMP. At time, he didn't know what kind of assistance they would provide. Lt. Col. (now General) Semianiev gave him a briefing in Calgary later. Drivers and crew commanders would go with four Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs). He was a crew commander who is responsible for taking care of the vehicle.

SB says that he had no experience with Bison APCs, but had lots of experience with M113 APCs (an APC with tracks instead of wheels). Says the Bisons were new to the army and that they are APCs too.

First went to Kamloops. This was a staging area where they linked up with RCMP Chilliwack ERT team. Cpl. Sean Maloney was one of the two police assigned to him. He was assigned to the Red Bison. From Calgary to Kamloops, he travelled with driver, Private Connors. Other drivers and crew commanders went with him. From Kamloops, they went to Chilliwack to get to know Chilliwack ERT members. Two ERT members were assigned to each Bison for a total of four crew members. Chilliwack was a general indoctrination to the vehicle for the police. SB taught the communications side of the Bison. Was in Chilliwack after Kamloops briefing. From Chilliwack, they went to Kamloops and then to 100 Mile House. They went by vehicle. Bisons were transported to 100 Mile House on flatbed trucks.

Can't recall what date he began duties in 100 Mile House. Duties at 100 Mile House included dropping off police members to locations. They would remain with police for 12 hour shift and then go back to 100 Mile House for rotation. He was assigned to Red Bison the whole time.

He doesn't recall what he did on Sept. 10th. Received instructions on the 9th. It took a couple of hours to pack APC. They took long way to get to location. On Ex. 5, he says he received instructions at Bravo. From there they went along Elephant, cut south on part not on map, and then took roads that brought him to south side of Gustafsen Lake to eventually get just south of Tiger (1000 Road) and Lion (Lakeshore Road). At location, members dismounted and took care of their responsibilities. Says explosives personnel laid their disabling charge across the road and he saw route he would take to get to this area.

That evening, ERT teams with him set up perimeter. SB and driver stayed with vehicle.

Next day, they stayed with vehicle again and were listening to radios as events unfolded. They were to block Tiger South when red truck came down. Hour before this happened, he heard that Elders were on route. He and three crew members went over plan. Plan was to wait until charge went off. Then they were to drive out and go to the truck. Plan was for truck to be disabled and it would be left on an angle. He was to drive into the truck at a point between the cab and the bed so that it would be positively disabled. Says this was to ensure that it wasn't drivable. They were to damage it and push it off the road. At this time, there were RCMP members in Bison. Chilliwack ERT was to remain in Bison and do "overwatch", while other ERT team was to go out and make the arrest.

Following explosion, they went out on road. It was hard to see the truck. They collided with the truck head on and put the Bison on top of the truck. Chilliwack maintained overwatch. Other team went out to make arrest. He was crew commander. He told Connors to hit it. He could see truck before they hit it. He was out of his hatch looking with his head out. Driver was using periscope to see. Rear hatches were open and members were standing up.

Nothing followed hit. There was silence. Then the ramps were dropped. He never saw anyone in the red truck before or after. He remained in vehicle. He saw yellow dog on road.

Once ERT was back in vehicle (APC), they proceeded south to intersection of Tiger and Lion. They went there because there were still people on the ground referring to the driver and passenger of the red truck. He was at intersection for about five minutes before getting further instructions. Everyone he started out with was still in the Bison - Connors and Chilliwack team. They were told to go west on Lion. He saw blue vehicle and was told by ERT guys that this was a blue Oldsmobile. He was out of the hatch when he saw this. Driver was still using periscope while ERT was out of hatches. As they came around bend, he could see blue car 500 yards away. Car drove away in opposite direction. They then drove down to water. He was given directions to go to lake so ERT could make arrest.

On small aerial photo, SB points out where he was at intersection of Lion and Tiger. He made a circle around before stopping at intersection. He shows bend where blue vehicle came into view. Says that blue car was four or five inches left of bend. He drove down to lake near tree below road triangle. Below triangle, there is a cluster of trees - he was west of these trees. He was still in crew commander's hatch exposed from the chest up. From this position, he had a very good view. The Chilliwack ERT was also exposed in the rear of Bison. They would be more exposed than SB.

LB hands out a copy to the jury of a diagram of the Bison. Made Ex. 207 and 207a. SB says he recognizes diagram.

Confirms that he was in crew commander's hatch and driver was in driver's hatch. He points out hatches that ERT were in were small hatches in rear of Bison. SB says that at time of driving from roadway to lake, he says the ERT members were standing up, exposed from their waists up. He could see that both ERT members were armed with rifles. SB had a pistol strapped to him and a rifle down below him. Two officers had their weapons out and pointing at the water.

As they moved down to the water, intent was for RCMP to arrest the people in the water. One of the officers told people in water to put their hands up and to come out. Bison's nose was pointed to water slightly askew.

Two people were wading parallel to the lakeshore. They were exposed from the waist up. Police told the two to come out of the water. Two or three rounds were fired as warning shots. One of the people put his hands up and started coming to shore. Police said "put your hands up and come into shore." SB says that he would have been lower in position in the Bison than the ERT members because of the nose-down attitude of the Bison. He says that the members were higher because they stood higher. SB says that they had discussed this earlier and he was to remain very low. The police fired about 20 feet in front of the two people in the water. At time shots were fired, two people were wading in to shore and one had his hands up. Can't say what they looked like or even if they were male or female.

As two people were wading into shore, Chilliwack members said they were taking fire from the rear. They were standing with their waist up exposed. He wasn't aware of fire from rear until team told him. Vehicle was turned around and that's when he noticed a person was standing up at the treeline.

Short adjournment is requested by Sheriff. Something to do with JoJo.

AB/ LB cont'd with Steven Bidwell - SB said that as soon as ERT said they were taking fire, he or driver responded and the vehicle was turned 180 degrees around. He was still looking out of the hatch. He could see an individual standing by the treeline. He appeared to be alone. Person was 150-200 metres away. Person appeared to be carrying a rifle, but SB can't be certain how it was carried. The Bison moved forward towards the person. He says that the reason the Bison was turned around was because that's how they're trained to respond. The front of the vehicle is strongest because the armour is sloped.

The Bison drove fairly quickly towards person. Person put rifle to shoulder. At this time, couldn't tell if person was male or female. When SB saw person bring rifle to shoulder, he went down in hatch and continued watching through periscopes. Says he can see to his front and to his sides. He admits it's more restrictive than standing out of the hatch. Says view through periscope is smaller, rectangular and more concentrated. SB saw person firing at him. He could tell because of the sound and the shoulder effect at the butt of the weapon. He clarifies this means that the shoulder pulls back after every shot. Says person had a rifle with a magazine. He heard semi-automatic fire. They were driving directly at individual. He doesn't know if officers in the rear were exposed at this time. Person was dodging, weaving back and forth. He began shooting after Bison began going at him. He would fire maybe four rounds at a time. As person would head into treeline, he would go one direction, stop, turn around, fire and then run in the other direction and do the same.

Bison got within 20-25 feet away from person. Clarifies that he isn't looking through a window, but through equipment that changes the angle. SB could hear "hits" hitting Bison to his front at the right and the left. He estimates there were four engagements where 4-6 rounds were fired each time.

Figures that Bison was struck quite a few times because person was very close. Only heard rounds hit up front. He also saw another person to his right at three o'clock position inside the treeline. He couldn't see what this person was doing, but could see he was wearing a dark blue toque. Can't say whether or not this second person was shooting at Bison.

First person was male, dressed with cammo top. Describes him as large and chunky, older in age. Didn't see person wear anything on his head. Hair was dark and straight. Person appeared to be native, without glasses, no facial hair, six feet tall. SB says he had seen a picture of this person earlier in Kamloops, two weeks before this incident. Says he would recognize the person if he saw him again. SB looks around courtroom and points to person in red - Wolverine.

Person turned around into treeline and began running. Bison followed. Person would run to 10 or 11 o'clock. Bison would bear down on him. Then person would run across front and move to one or two o'clock position. This went on about four times. SB says this ground was passable. Not large enough to drive through, but wide enough to run through. SB says they just crashed through trees. These were about two or three inches in diameter. Then they hit a bigger tree which disabled the vehicle. The steering was wrecked and they couldn't turn. Person disappeared after this. He never saw person after this.

Vehicle could go back and forth. They moved vehicle out to clearing to assist in extracting the vehicle. On small aerial photo, he points to area below road triangle where he first took fire. Vehicle went in a clockwise motion and proceeded to treeline directly north. SB not sure if Bison went on left track of triangle or through centre of triangle. Bison drove through treeline of light forest below clearing where Bison eventually came to rest. It crashed through forest and ended up in that clearing.

They couldn't turn vehicle so they placed it into clearing. SB called Green team for assistance to help extract them. During the wait for assistance, they were taking fire from the right (north) side of their vehicle. Vehicle is facing west at time. Fire was coming from treeline. He didn't have a very good view. They were taking small arms fire. Rifle fire. SB says the ERT team recognized the types of fire. He himself could hear that some of the hits were louder than others. Knew he was being hit by the sound of the "pings". Thinks that 30-40 rounds hit the Bison before the Green Bison pulled up. At this time, none of the people in the Red Bison were exposed. They were just sitting there. There is no way of firing out of vehicle without opening hatches. He isn't sure if his hatch was locked when they first took fire, but he later locked it. He says that no rounds were fired at person when Bison was chasing him.

When Green Bison arrived, it did a circle of area and then pulled up to Red Bison. The plan was for Green to back up to Red and at a count of five, the ramps would be opened and the people in the Red Bison would go into Green. When ramps were opened, members in Green APC reported taking fire. One of the ERT members from Red ran to the Green, but then SB got orders from Chilliwack to close the ramp. Says that once ramp is opened, there is nothing to protect members inside. The ramps were opened for about 12 seconds. Fire was coming from treeline at this point. He doesn't know if police were firing, but no one from his APC was firing. He raised ramp because he was ordered to, although he originally understood that ramp wouldn't be raised until all members in Red went into the Green Bison.

SB says that a new plan was made to have other APCs come up to the sides of Red. They would hook up tow bar to Green and be pulled out. They waited for 10 minutes for other APCs. He doesn't recall any rounds hitting him during these 10 minutes. When APCs arrived, a new plan was made. The APCs pulled up to sides. Officers began laying down fire out of hatches while other officers hooked up tow bar. They were pulled without any problems along lakeshore and then to Zulu.

On way to Zulu, they stopped briefly at checkpoint to check tow cable. They did quick look over vehicle too. He wasn't involved in checking out the vehicle later. He never fired his weapon during incident. Other than shots that were fired near swimmers, he isn't aware of any other firing by ERT members in his Bison.

HR - SB says the map he has is a personal map and he was using that to check which way he went. SB confirms that he couldn't have found his way into the area from 100 Mile House with Ex. 5 map. He would need a better detailed map to do that. HR sees that SB has an engagement order with Insp. Kembel's name on it. SB also has a rule of engagement order. HR takes these from SB and wants to use them for his cross-examination. LB thinks SB will need these and HR says he'll make them available if he needs them.

HR asks SB what his rules of engagement were. SB says that it's been 12 months since he last read it and can't remember. The only rule he knows of is that any Armed Forces personnel can use force to protect themselves. He can't remember them anymore, but SB says that at time, he knew them inside and out. HR asks him to review rules overnight so HR can ask him about it tomorrow.

The engagement order with Kembel's name on it was given to SB by a commander, but he can't remember who. SB agrees that these were rules that he was given and that he follows orders.

Regarding Bisons, SB says that this was the first time he used one. As crew commander, he was able to move easily into it. HR suggests that the Bison is a 1995 upgraded version of what SB used before. SB doesn't know the weight of the Bison nor the weight of the M113. HR tries to ridicule SB because he doesn't know the weight of the vehicle he's driving. SB clarifies that he wasn't a driver. SB says the height of the Bison is taller than a man, but doesn't know the height. He used to drive an M113 and from the driver's seat, he could see road.

SB was given instructions from police. HR wonders what the object of the exercise was when he was chasing the man. SB says it wasn't to kill him or run him down. Claims he was hoping man would give up or trip and fall.

Regarding the red pickup truck, the intention was to hit the truck from the side. HR says that there would be a good chance of killing a passenger. SB claims that is why they were aiming for the spot between the cab and the box. HR asks if he has ever been in an automobile accident. SB says no. HR suggests that this would cause a thing called T boning where a car splits in half. SB knows nothing of that. SB claims that they rammed truck because they couldn't be sure that the data sheet would disable the truck.

Later after the operation, he returned to scene and flew over it by helicopter.

The instructions he received with Kembel's name on it were the only instructions that he was given. Says that the two RCMP members assigned to him were "Maloney and someone else".

Agrees that both the Bison and the M113 are bullet-resistant. HR suggests that this is a relatively safe place from small arms and SB agrees. SB agrees that he only faced small arms fire that day. SB was confident that Bison would resist small arms fire. SB says that he never examined vehicle except when he checked tow bar. After he left it at the staging area, that was the last he saw of the Bison. SB agrees that the (typo - unreadable) would be if you were exposed.

   * Day 44: Monday, September 23            * Day 47: Thursday, September 26
   * Day 45: Tuesday, September 24           * Day 48: Friday, September 27
   * Day 46: Wednesday, September 25