Trial, Week 17: Summary - November 22


WEEK 17: NOVEMBER 18 - 22, 1996

   * Day 77: Monday, November 18         * Day 79: Thursday, November 21
   * Tuesday, November 19 - no court     * Day 80: Friday, November 22
   * Day 78: Wednesday, November 20


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by Settlers In Support of Indigenous Sovereignty

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 1996 - DAY 80

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

There are some seating changes today with the accused. Toby and Percy have moved over closer to the jury. The court had originally placed them as far away as possible, so it will be a nice change.

Without the jury.

LB - says they have two witnesses today: the completion of Dennis Ryan's cross- examination and the examination of Sean Wylie. Also says that McConaghy has brought in the two weapon exhibits - the M-16 and the HK MP5 - as well as the .50 calibre machine gun in its disassembled mode.

J says that regarding the disclosures, he has the following to say. The Crown has reported that Olfert said that Farrell and Brown weren't directly involved in the Gustafsen Lake investigation, so the J rules that their notes will not be required.

DC - says that regarding his request for exemption for Sheila, he asks that she continue to be paid for the duration of her stay in the hospital. J agrees.

GW - asks on behalf of Wolverine for Glen Kealey to come in and sit next to him. J understands that Kealey will not be a counsel and will only be giving advice to Wolverine. J allows Kealey in.

LB - asks that the exhibits be given numbers. Exhibit 238 is the .50 calibre machine gun, Ex. 238a is a .50 calibre single round and Ex. 239 is the MP5. MA asks if the AR-15 that was submitted last week was in fact an M-16.

Brian McConaghy is called back in and he explains to the J that the AR-15 looks identical to the M-16, though its internal workings are a little different. The lab didn't have an M-16. MA asks for an explanation for what the MP5 is. J says he can tell the jury this.

The jury is called in.

J tells the jury that he regrets to inform them that Harry Rankin is no longer representing Mr. Ignace and he is now representing himself. J explains that Glen Kealey will be giving advice to Wolverine as a friend of the court.

J also explains that the firearms expert has been brought back in to clarify the weapons that have been brought in.

Brian McConaghy (BM) says that the M-16 is a designation given to a fully automatic weapon, while the AR-15 is a semi-auto weapon. He says that the MP5 fires a pistol calibre bullet and its design is based on a submachine gun, though the RCMP's version is semi-automatic.

J tells the jury that this witness has brought in a .50 calibre machine gun, as well as one round. BM explains that the round is a dummy round and is not live.

MA says that they haven't seen the .50 calibre machine gun yet. Two sheriffs are needed to carry in the heavy weapon. The jury is visibly amazed by its size; a few jaws drop. MA says that BM would have needed help carrying it while transporting it to 100 Mile House. BM agrees and says that Grant Azoldu would have helped him and he would have also got help from the pilot.

BM shows the various pieces of the weapon: the main receiver, the barrel, the bolt, the pintle mount and the dummy round. He says that the bullets are linked together by clips, forming a "belt". He says that the only other thing that he would have brought up would have been ammo boxes and some tools. He brought no instruction manuals.

MA asks about .308 sniper rifles. BM says that he is familiar with the Winchester model, but not the Remington model. MA asks about .305 rifle which is referred to in some notes. BM looks at the notes by Cst. Cynthathie?. BM suspects that .305 is just sloppy handwriting for .308. He says that the reference to "suppressed rounds" can refer to ammo used for silencers or it can be used to suppress the recoil. BM confirms that a silencer can be used on a .308 rifle, but says it can be used on any weapon as long as it uses subsonic ammo. BM is not aware of the RCMP sniper rifles using silencers.

There is a line in the notes referring to a company name and BM says that this is a company that produces firearms. A series of figures following are explained by BM as referring to calculations of suppressed bullets being used by a .308. The final line refers to .308 Match ammo which BM says is good quality ammo and is used by the RCMP.

ST - asks if there is a reason why the RCMP would buy full auto weapons and block them so they will fire only semi-auto, instead of buying semi-autos to begin with. BM says that more military-style weapons are manufactured than sporterized ones in the arms industry. It's cheaper to buy full auto military weapons and convert them to semi-auto.

SF - BM says that he didn't actually sign out the .50 cal in '95, but spoke to his superior about it. He says that the .50 cal is built in the United States. He doesn't know where the lab got it, but says a number of their weapons come to the lab by donation or through forfeitures. He says he brought this one up because he had test fired it and knew it worked. Two .50 cals had been recovered out of a crashed WWII aircraft and he didn't know if they still functioned.

Sgt. Dennis Ryan (DR) returns to the stand.

MA - asks if the RCMP paid any of the third party intermediaries, like Jeannette Armstrong or Marlowe Sam. DR is not aware of this, but says that he would have known.

DR says that he was away for 24 hours on two occasions before Sept. 11. He's not sure exactly when. DR confirms that he didn't make notes during the negotiations, but admits that he did make notes during the day. DR explains the organization of the RCMP by saying that he was in the negotiation side of the "house" and the other part of the "house" was the tactical side. He says that Olfert was in the middle. Edwards and Kembel were on the tactical side, along with Gates (coordinator for the ERT command). DR was in charge of the other side. DR confirms that he had daily meetings with the command structure. He says that he wasn't in all of them, but in a number of them.

DR says that Olfert was at the meetings, along with Latimer, Bass, Moulton, but not Kembel. On Sept. 7, 1300 hours, he doesn't believe he was in a meeting, but understands that Farrell and Brown were there, along with Mike Webster.

DR confirms that on the 9th at 1630 hours, he was at a meeting with Hall, Moulton, Smith, Bass and Webster. In the morning he met with Olfert and Hall.

That evening he met with other command staff.

DR says that on the 9th, he and Smawley went to Alkali Lake and met with Charlene Belleau and 30 Band members there. Gordon Sebastian (a lawyer) was there, along with Peter Antoine. DR says these people had concerns about the APCs. That evening, he had a meeting with Hall and Moulton in 100 Mile House. Hall was ready to make a document regarding the people coming out of the camp. DR says that this was a letter to Upper and Lower Shuswap and Okanagan people and was accompanied with a map.

DR says that he isn't sure who prepared the perimeter. He says the police wanted a finite perimeter established. MA sees that DR has the original map which has a perimeter marked in red. DR doesn't know who made the red markings. DR says that Marlowe Sam and Jeannette Armstrong took it in to the camp with the letter. MA notes that there are blue markings around the map. DR says that they were not created by the police. MA suggests that the people in the camp made these blue markings. DR doesn't know.

That evening on the 9th, there was another meeting. No minutes were taken. DR says that he wasn't at that meeting. He says that Smawley had reduced the comments made at Alkali Lake to a report which Smawley submitted to the command group. MA has DR look at his notes. At 1630 hours, DR met with Hall, Smith, Moulton, Bass and Webster. DR confirms this meeting was after the Alkali Lake meeting. DR doesn't recall how long this meeting lasted.

At 1810 hours, DR met with Charlene Belleau and told her that Hall was preparing a letter.

On Sept. 10th, at 0830 hours, DR says that he met with Hall, Sebastian, Smawley, Belleau and Webster. This is when DR gave Belleau the letter and the map to take to the camp. MA suggests that at two in the afternoon, DR called Dave Belleau in the camp. This was to satisfy himself that Belleau had taken the map and letter in. Later that evening, DR met with Webster, Sebastian, Belleau, Norm Torp, Wylie and Peter Antoine at 2110 hours.

MA has some letters that are not exhibits. MA shows DR these. One is an agreement with the Shuswap Nation which was signed by Charlene Belleau. DR says that he received these documents after the meeting. During the meeting, Sebastian took affront with Ryan - he was upset and argumentative. MA suggests that Sebastian was upset because they feared an attack on the camp. DR agrees they were upset.

MA asks if it's fair to suggest that the camp had marked the map with blue. DR says that Wolverine wanted the boundaries expanded to get access to water. DR says that Antoine was suggesting a much larger demilitarized zone with U.N. personnel in there. DR took this proposal to the command team and it was rejected.

Between 9:30 p.m. meeting with Sebastian and DR's meeting with Olfert, Belleau came to DR with the cease-fire agreement. DR took this to Olfert.

MB/ DC is late returning to the court. Where is he?

No jury.

J says that one of the jury members is ill today. The member will last through this witness, but no longer than this. MA says that there is something he'd like to bring up without the jury or witness present.

Ryan leaves.

MA says that he needs to know if Agnes Snow is going to be called as a witness or not because this will affect the way he crosses Ryan.

LB says that the Crown doesn't necessarily have control over whether people will come to testify or not. He says that there are reasons that she may not be able to testify.

MA says that there are some things he can cover with Ryan, but notes that SF has informed him that she'll be a couple of hours with this witness.

Jury and Ryan in. J says that he appreciates the sick jury member carrying on, but says that as soon as the member can't take it, let the J know.

Foreman says that the sick member was under the assumption that this would only last an hour or so, but says to carry on.

MA - DR repeats that he brought the documents that MA now has to the management team. MA asks that these be put in as exhibits. LB says that they had hoped to put these in anyway, but wants the other letters that accompany this letter and map to also be put in. MA looks at these other documents and has no objection to this and suggests that they be bundled together in chronological order for the jury's sake. MA also asks that the original letter and map that DR has with the markings on it, also be made an exhibit. It is.

The court is stood down briefly for counsel to organize this bundle into an exhibit.

L/ Without jury.

MA - he still wants Brown and Farrell's notes. MA says that in Olfert's notes there is no reference of the .50 calibre machine gun and yet Olfert claims that he took overall responsibility for the operation. MA re-submits his application for Brown and Farrell's notes because McConaghy had contacted Farrell's office to confirm releasing the .50 calibre, so Farrell obviously did more than Olfert claims he did.

J declines to alter his decision. J notes that a jury member hasn't returned from lunch yet, so will stand down the court until that person returns.

Jury and Ryan return.

MA - confirms that the bundle of papers has been approved by the Defense counsel as an exhibit. Copies are passed to the jury.

MA (cont'd with Ryan) - DR confirms that the document entitled "Cease-fire Agreement" was given to him by Charlene Belleau and he took it to a command meeting on Sept. 10th. Hall, Olfert, Wylie, Sarich, Webster were at the meeting at 100 Mile House Detachment. DR says this lasted for about 25 minutes. DR says that the tick marks on the document indicate what the RCMP agreed with. Following this meeting, DR and Wylie went to the Red Coach Inn where Belleau was having a meeting with a number of Shuswap, Chilcotin Tribal Council members and others. DR told Belleau that he gave their letter to command and then told Belleau command's response. Belleau read the response out loud to the others. Then DR ate and went to bed.

At 12:40 a.m. on the 11th, a letter from Belleau's group was faxed in to the command post.

On the morning of the 11th at 8:15 a.m. there was a meeting with Webster, Smawley, Sebastian, Belleau, Olfert and others. Belleau was the speaker of the group. Sebastian's attitude was mellower and more conciliatory. The natives wanted arrest procedures clarified regarding natives in the camp.

MA suggests that Webster was at Waco, Texas and DR agrees. DR denies that Webster gave the negotiating team advice. DR admits that Webster advised the police to tighten the perimeter. DR is not sure if Webster advised the police to cut off communications. DR denies that the negotiations during this time were "frantic" - he prefers the word "intense". MA suggests that Charlene and the Shuswap Nation wanted to settle it that night on the 10th. DR says that Charlene told him that they would sit all night and that is why they went over there that night. DR denies that they were hurried because the 11th was around the corner.

Regarding tightening the perimeter, DR looks at the negotiator's transcripts. On Sept. 3rd, mobile negotiator tape two, page 6, MA reads that DR told Wolverine that "the perimeter has closed in, my commander has ordered that." DR agrees that at this time, there was no defined perimeter. On page 12, MA sees that DR refers to the "boundary business". DR agrees that he is talking about the perimeter again.

On Sept. 7th, MA sees that Wylie says that the police have maintained a perimeter, but have pulled back so as not to cause any aggravation. On page 8, Wylie again says that "we're maintaining a containment to keep people out of there." DR agrees that at this point, there is no defined perimeter.

MA notes that there is no reference to a perimeter until the 10th, when Wolverine (W) says that they need a bigger perimeter. Later in the day, DR tells W that the commanders have rejected the camp's proposed perimeter. Then DR tells W to keep his people inside the perimeter and asks for Belleau. DR tells Belleau that he wants to ensure that people are kept inside the perimeter.

MA suggests that DR had a deadline to reach a settlement before the 11th. DR denies this.

MA reads that on the 11th, DR tells W, after the truck explodes, that he has to make sure the camp stays inside the perimeter and that this has to be resolved now. There is confusion as to when this call was made. J notes that this took place at 3:57 p.m.

MA notes that on the 10th, there were a number of references to the perimeter. MA suggests that on the 10th, DR and the command group knew they were going to blow up the truck and that is why they wanted everyone to stay inside the camp. DR denies knowing about blowing up the truck. DR says that they were discussing the perimeter so much because Belleau was trying to get a cease-fire in effect. MA asks what the purpose of the perimeter was before they sought containment. MA: "Safety, right? Safety from aggression from the RCMP?" DR: "Correct." He pauses. DR: "I don't know if aggression is the right word." MA: "It's alright, I think you've answered the question."

DR agrees that Bruce Clark represented someone in the camp and that he allowed Clark into the camp only once. MA: "So you controlled the lawyer/client relationship?" DR: "Something like that."

MA asks if DR had seen the letter by Clark to the police concerned about an invasion of the camp. DR says he wasn't aware of a planned assault for Aug. 28th. This was the day that DR got there. He was briefed by Moulton. MA reads the letter that Clark wrote to DR following the police reneging on the promise that Clark's letter would be forwarded to the Solicitor General. DR agrees that Clark was concerned about a police assault on his clients. MA asks if DR was aware of Clark's position on Indian rights - that the police were on unceded land and that his clients could take up arms and defend Indian land. DR agrees that Clark said that this was Indian land. DR knew that Clark had something pending in Ottawa on Sept. 12th. DR knew that Clark said that the police were wrong to be there. DR didn't know that Clark had told the people to take up arms to defend their land.

MA suggests that lawyers were contacted to advise the police on whether the Indians could take their issues to the Privy Council or to an independent tribunal. DR says that he isn't sure of the exact words between Sgt. Hartl and the lawyers, but it was something like what MA suggested. DR checks a document to see the legal advice of the lawyers. DR confirms that he learned that the Privy Council didn't meet anymore and that the world court had no jurisdiction to try the matter [SISIS note: this contradicts Dr. Bruce Clark's soundly researched legal opinion; do not take DR's claim as hard fact]. DR agrees he learned this on Sept. 1st, but that he didn't share this information with Wolverine. DR says that this wouldn't have been productive.

DR agrees that both Wolverine and Percy, as well as Clark, wanted this to go to the Privy Council. DR agrees that his briefing led him to believe that this became a land issue after it was initially a Sundance issue. He says that he was briefed by Moulton, but has no notes that Moulton told him that the camp wanted the Privy Council to intervene. He did know that the police regarded Percy and Wolverine as the so-called leaders.

DR agrees that he took a special course in Ottawa for negotiating, but never took training regarding native culture and customs. He understands that natives reach decisions by consensus. DR confirms that W did ask for a native constable one time. MA notes that in the radio transcripts, W says he wanted DR to investigate George Findley. DR says that they had a native constable on his team named Demerais, but agrees that Demerais never spoke face to face with the camp. DR agrees that he knows five or six native police officers with a corporal and sergeant rank. MA asks why DR didn't use these natives for conversations on the radio. DR say that this might have been counter-productive as native police aren't always looked well upon in native communities.

DR says that he wasn't really aware that native officers were going to the camp and drinking coffee while gaining intelligence. DR says the negotiators sort of learned on the job about native society. He says they learned about native spirituality, politics and the rivalries involved.

DR admits that a number of natives came forward to offer their assistance. MA suggests that there was even someone there who knew Wolverine and had worked with him on the Jack Cram case. DR says that there were a number of people who called, including Marlowe Sam and Jeannette Armstrong. MA pulls out a letter from Perry Cook from Prince George who is well qualified as a counsellor, a writer, and as a person who has dealt with natives all over. DR agrees that Cook was never called and instead, Webster was - a non-native.

SF - DR agrees that he didn't know that the red truck was going to be bombed at any time. SF asks if DR had been told by his superiors that the camp was to be in grave danger if they didn't stay inside the perimeter. DR says that the extra talk on the 10th about the perimeter was a result of a map going in.

Prior to this, references to a perimeter regarded only a psychological perimeter.

SF suggests that the third party intermediaries suspected that something was suspicious about the map and that they thought that maybe the police would attack anyone now found outside the perimeter. DR agrees that Dave Belleau told him on the 10th that a cease-fire was in effect, but then W got on the phone and said that the perimeter was too small. SF suggests that the camp knew of no agreement. DR says that there was an agreement of the perimeter. SF points out that it was only the police who knew about the perimeter and asks DR that if the Shuswap people were still trying to figure things out, how can he call this an agreement? DR says that this is why they were up all night negotiating because he says that the longer this went on, the more chance for "misadventure". SF asks if the "misadventure" would have been increased with more police and more weapons and more tanks.

DR says that this had to end. SF asks him what had to end. DR says the standoff. SF points out that the people in the camp never set up barricades or blocked the road. It was the police who did this. SF says that she wasn't free to go to 100 Mile House if she wanted to. DR says that he offered her this option. She points out that if she had walked out, she couldn't have gone to Smitty's for a burger - she would have been arrested. DR agrees she would have been arrested.

DR says that the negotiable items varied, though he admits that he was briefed by Moulton that there were no negotiable items.

DR says that he wasn't concerned about what the natives thought of the land or of what the whites thought. He just wanted people to come out of there safely. SF says she would like to believe that.

SF asks if DR really believed that the camp would accept these perimeter conditions. DR says it was a possibility.

SF suggests that the negotiators worked for the tactical element and that negotiations were simply used to gain intelligence for the tactical side. DR denies this.

SF reads from the Sept. 3rd radio log where W said that he wouldn't want his boys to be ambushed getting water because that would really get it on. W explained where they needed to go for water across the lake. DR then said that this is the kind of information they need to share to make sure no one gets hurt. SF points out that on the 10th, they sent in a plan that didn't include the water hole. SF suggests that the police knew that this plan would never be accepted.

   * Day 77: Monday, November 18         * Day 79: Thursday, November 21
   * Tuesday, November 19 - no court     * Day 80: Friday, November 22
   * Day 78: Wednesday, November 20