Trial, Week 20: Summary - December 12


WEEK 20: DECEMBER 11 - 13, 1996

  * Monday, December 9 - no court         * Day 90: Thursday, December 12
  * Tuesday, December 10 - no court       * Day 91: Friday, December 13
  * Day 89: Wednesday, December 11


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by Settlers In Support of Indigenous Sovereignty


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Jury in. J thanks them for returning and is glad they remember how to get to the courthouse after such a delay. He apologizes for the delay, but says it was unavoidable.

LB - Next witness (#70): Chief Agnes Snow (AS) - Chief of Canoe Creek Band since 1992. Elected by members of Canoe Creek Band. 600 people in Band. Canoe Creek and Dog Creek one Band. Previous to being Band Chief, she was working in alcohol training. She is Shuswap. 17 Bands make up Shuswap Nation, totalling approximately 6,000 people. Soda Creek, Williams Lake Band, Canim Lake Band and Canoe Creek Band make up Cariboo Tribal Council. She names the chiefs of those four Bands.

She smiles when asked what her job entails because she does so much. She claims she takes direction from the members and looks after their needs. She works with the four chiefs of the Cariboo Tribal Council, which acts as an advisory group.

She first got to know Lyle James in '89. She knows him as being involved in cattle operations. She doesn't know Percy that well. She says that he is a relative of hers through her mother. She knows Ernie Archie from residential school. She didn't know Wolverine until this incident. She doesn't know John Hill.

She is familiar with the Gustafsen Lake area, but isn't familiar with the Sundance ceremony. LB asks AS if she knows if the Sundance is a traditional ceremony. ST objects because AS just said that she knows nothing about it. Her opinion is not relevant. LB asks instead what role the Sundance has played in her particular Band. AS says she heard about the Sundance when she became Chief, but not before. She has heard of the name "the Shuswap Sundance Society," but doesn't know what it refers to.

She became aware of the events at Gustafsen Lake in June of '95. LB asks if AS became aware of the events when she heard about a trespass notice being served. ST objects because this is hearsay. LB says that the purpose of the question is to explain what her subsequent conduct was. J explains to jury that this is hearsay and is only designed to explain her conduct. AS says that after they heard about what was happening, she, David Archie and ? went up to talk to Percy. They wanted to know what was happening. This was around June 17 and took place at Gustafsen Lake. She remembers Percy being there, but can't remember who else.

AS says that riders had come into the campsite and destroyed the camp. Percy said they were getting ready for the Sundance when the riders came in. AS says she made plans for a subsequent meeting because she hoped to sit down with the ranchers to iron out everything. AS says that she told Percy that she would arrange this.

This second meeting took place about a week later. Antoine Archie, Charlie Andrew, members of the Sundance group and members of Lyle James' group were there. AS says that she isn't sure if W was there. Percy was there. They discussed the destruction of the campsite, as well as the upcoming Sundance. They also discussed the Queen - to meet with her to settle the land issue. W brought this up. Prior to this meeting, she had never met W. She doesn't recall if anyone else had brought up the Queen. She believes that John Hill was there, but doesn't recall him speaking. She only remembers W speaking about the Queen.

The meeting resulted in agreeing that the Sundance would take place.

She asked that following the Sundance, everyone leave. She says that the Sundance could take place because it hadn't caused any trouble in the past. As far as she knows, they agreed. Meeting lasted a couple of hours.

James' daughter and sons were there. Rita Charlie and her daughter Mary Thomas were there to listen because they were involved in the ceremony. AS says she was there hoping to deal with it in a peaceful way. The meeting ended with the idea that the Sundance would take place and that everything was fine. Following this meeting, she never returned to Gustafsen Lake.

She was aware of another meeting at Dog Creek in July, but wasn't there because she was in Ottawa.

In August '95, she returned from Ottawa and was in her community. She says that members of the community were upset. ST objects and J agrees that she shouldn't say what other people were saying. AS says that people came up to her and were upset. They wanted something done because "this couldn't go on." She says that there was so much going on. Following this, she met with Chiefs from other communities to find out how to resolve this peacefully.

MA asks that she not look at her notes and to exhaust her memory first.

AS says that everyone found out about weapons and things started heating up. "I was scared, a lot of people were scared." She and others thought that the person who could do something was Ovide Mercredi, so they called him.

On Aug. 25, Mercredi went into the camp with Antoine Archie, AS and Lenny Sellars and ?. AS recalls W speaking during this meeting. She was at the camp around the fire. She says her role was to be there to see that no one got hurt and to look over her traditional territory. She says that Gustafsen Lake falls into the Canoe Creek Band traditional territory.

She says that there was a lot of commotion with the press around so the media were asked to leave. Then Ovide started speaking and they were trying to find a way of resolving this. A second meeting was planned.

One or two days later, they had a second meeting. The same people were there again. There was no media this time. At the second meeting, she can recall a lot of anger. She recalls W speaking. Percy was present and he spoke too. She says that Percy didn't speak that much. She doesn't recall anyone else speaking. Of Mercredi's group, Mercredi spoke. Following this meeting, LB asks what was resolved. ST objects that the issues to be resolved are not defined. LB changes the question to what happened at the end of the meeting.

AS says that W asked Mercredi to sign a paper that had to do with Bruce Clark being the lawyer to take an issue to the Queen. Mercredi said he couldn't sign on behalf of all First Nations people and he would want to consult them first. They planned another meeting, but she says that there was another shooting and the police tightened the net and they couldn't get back in. She knows that the lines of communications were cut and this is what they were dealing with during the second meeting.

Following this meeting at the camp, they had a meeting back at 100 Mile House. Mercredi, the Chiefs of the Cariboo Tribal Council and the RCMP were there. Mercredi told the police that he didn't want to see any harm come to the people in the camp. LB tries to ask if Mercredi created an agreement with Lyle James regarding the Sundance. ST objects that she is being asked to give hearsay.

ST says that if LB is going to call evidence regarding this agreement, then the people who signed it should be testifying.

The jury and the witness are asked to leave so that LB and ST can decide on this.

LB - says that AS will give evidence that when an agreement was made, she read it out to the media. Ryan has said that he was not aware of the agreement, but Ryan said that W was. LB says that this agreement, though it wasn't made in the presence of the accused, relates to efforts made by James and Mercredi to resolve this. He says that the agreement was conveyed to the camp through the media. LB is not putting any weight on the matter, but the Defense can argue whether it has any weight or not. J asks what LB is asking the jury to do with this evidence. LB says that James' character was called into question in this trial and this evidence would show that he was acting in good faith.

W - asks the Crown what the legal status is of the elected Chiefs. According to the Penner Report, they don't have the legal status to act for natives. He also asks the Crown for the legal transfer of land to the Crown. He says that the Shuswap people had Chiefs and subchiefs - not elected Chiefs. These elected Chiefs and Mercredi are only civil servants. They have no right to speak for us. W says that this has to go to the Queen. Native people are not subjects of the Queen, "we are allies." He says that a precedent is currently being established out east and a third party tribunal is going to be called. This is where this will all be resolved.

ST - says that this agreement was made by elected Chiefs. The Sundance is a religious ceremony and they had no power to make such agreements. J says that he understands that the issue is that an agreement was made which the accused were not a party to. ST says that when the jury hears that an agreement was made, it implies that the camp was involved. The only reference they have of an agreement is from a short snippet of a phone call between Ryan and W. ST doesn't know if W told the others in the camp of this agreement.

W - says that the thing that has to be looked at is the legality of elected Chiefs. They are civil servants and don't have the right to make agreements.

MA - understands that the Crown is intending to put this agreement in as an exhibit, which is signed by AS. MA wants to have it excluded because of its late disclosure. AS was also called late. Mercredi was instrumental in creating this agreement. There are notes in the police file which indicate that Sarich wanted to suppress this agreement from the media and the camp. Sarich was never cross-examined on this and he should have been. MA says that the Defense should have known about this agreement and that Snow would be called before the trial began. The Defense can't be expected to change its tact just because of late disclosures. MA says that the Crown will likely tell the jury that once this agreement was made, the people should have left the camp. The Crown isn't leading this to explain Ryan's comments. If the Defense knew that the agreement was to be led or Snow was to be called, they would have handled things differently.

LB - says that the agreement was made potential evidence for a long time, as was Snow. He claims that SF questioned this agreement already and was admissible through a number of issues. He says that MA should not be surprised.

ST - says that if you look at the transcripts of Ryan and W's conversation, the only thing said was a question by Ryan in which he asks "did you hear about the agreement?". W didn't answer.

There is no evidence that the agreement was passed on to the camp, which leads one to believe that the Crown will lead the agreement as MA has suggested. If this agreement was important, then the Crown would have called Antoine Archie, Ovide Mercredi or one of James' sons who signed this. There is no indication that the Crown placed any importance on this agreement. Now they are making it important. There is no discussion in the radio transcripts of who signed, what the consequences were and that now weapons should be put down.

W - says that the elected Chiefs don't have a right to speak on other people's rights. Mercredi is made out to be a leader of Indian people, but he's not.

SF - wants the agreement in because it goes to the truth. They had no more right to make an agreement on religious practice than SF and the J could make about Catholic practice.

MA - does not take issue with when disclosures were made. His trouble is that if the agreement was of importance, then LB should have led it through one of James' sons who signed it - not AS.

MB/ Without jury.

J - says the issue is on what grounds can the agreement be brought in through this witness. J rules it is admissible to explain the police's subsequent actions, which have come under scrutiny and is also admissible as part of the narrative. J says, however, that the details are not important enough to make them relevant. The agreement will only be marked for identification. Concerns about what W knew of the agreement through the radio will fall to the jury. He concludes that MA's concerns fall short of convincing him to throw out the agreement.

DC - asks if the J will simply say that an agreement was made or if an agreement was made regarding the Sundance.

MA - says that if the agreement is going to be discussed in front of the jury, then he would rather have the agreement be made an exhibit.

ST - isn't ready to admit the agreement's contents yet until he receives further disclosures.

J rules that the contents will be marked as an exhibit after all.

LB - says that to avoid further interruptions, he wants to forewarn the Defense of what AS will say. He reads her statement to the media which says that their Band and Lyle James came up with an agreement regarding the grounds and the Sundance and that she asks that the weapons be put down. J says that she shouldn't discuss the details of the agreement. LB and Defense agree that this will be fine.

Jury and Agnes Snow in.

J says that we will start tomorrow at 11:15 a.m. because of a juror's schedule.

LB - AS looks at the agreement exhibit. She confirms that her signature is on it, as is Lyle James'. This is the document she mentioned earlier concerning the future of the Sundance ceremony. She agrees that she gave a press conference on Aug. 30th in 100 Mile House at the hotel. The room was filled with media.

After the 17th of September, she returned to Gustafsen Lake. She says that after the standoff, people in the community were looking for things that they thought might be in the camp area. She also wanted to see what the place looked like. She was there about a week after Sept. 17.

From Aug. 30 to Sept. 17, another group, with Charlene Belleau, arrived in the area. They were also seeking a peaceful resolution. They had a meeting at Alkali Lake on how to get the people out alive. AS says that she was there to look after the interests of her Band. She says that her primary purpose was to make sure that everyone got out alive. AS says that the situation had changed and there were other people involved now. She claims that they were always looking for a peaceful resolution.

She was involved in "putting the Sundance circle to rest". ST asks for the purpose of this evidence. J says that there was evidence of this given earlier. AS says that there was a lot of discussion in the community regarding the Sundance. J asks her to only describe the actions taken as a result of the discussions. She says that they contacted John Stevens, as well as members of the "Sundance group". Based on direction from someone who had met with Stevens and based on discussions with the community, they decided that this had to be put to rest. They also discussed this with ranchers. AS says that they asked members of the "Sundance group" what to do to put it to rest and they followed their instructions.

AS says that they were told to offer tobacco and say prayers. All the Chiefs from the area were there. They offered tobacco and said prayers and this is when they took it down. Towards the end of taking it down, one of James' sons arrived. She says that he didn't do much to help. He mostly stood around and talked, but he also took a few things down.

AS says that as far back as she can remember, Gustafsen Lake was traditionally in the Canoe Creek Band territory. She remembers people fishing and building the lake there. AS says that their Band has been involved in land claims in this area for the last two years. She says that they are involved in the treaty process, which entails in trying to get their land back by trying to negotiate with the government. She claims that each member has a voice in this. Someone in the gallery yells "liar!" It's a member from the Cariboo Tribal Council. AS pretends not to hear and continues.

She says that the Band needs a 70% acceptance for this and they have already had a vote and got this approval. Now they are going around to the community to explain what the process entails and the members will have to decide whether they want to go into the talks.

LB shows AS a three page document which is about a claim made by the Cariboo Tribal Council. AS says that all four Bands of the Council are making joint claims. AS agrees that the map on the document shows the area being claimed by the four Bands collectively. LB makes this document an exhibit. Copies of this go to the jury.

LB wants to show an excerpt of two videotapes involving the meeting of Mercredi in the camp.

The video is rolled: Mercredi is seen swamped by the media as he is about to enter the camp. Mercredi enters the camp, but it looks like this cameraman wasn't allowed in. Then his name is called (Pat Bell of CBC) and the cameraman is now inside the camp area.

Around the camp fire, W speaks to Mercredi and the Chiefs. W says that they have a choice today - to be a good leader of their people or to be a disgrace. W hands Mercredi a document that he wants Mercredi to sign. He says that now all the Chiefs have a choice. "We are Indian people and we have fought for our rights for a long time while you people have been collaborating with the treaty process...which is a big fraud." W says that we are going international now. "Either be a great leader or a big disgrace." W says that they have been called down by the white government and the collaborators.

Percy now starts to speak Shuswap. W interrupts and says again that Clark has to open up the door to the Privy Council. Percy speaks again and now W translates for him. W speaks Shuswap to the Shuswap elected Chiefs.

W asks for comments from the Chiefs. "How poor do you have to see us so that you will see this?" W says that people are putting them down for what they are. He wants Mercredi to pick up the phone to the Governor General to get access to the Privy Council. "It's not that big a request." W says that he is asking Clark to head off the RCMP from moving in by going international.

Mercredi wants to ask some questions about the document. He is trying to get a good press line out, but W keeps interrupting him. Mercredi asks that if he signs the document, will they put their weapons down, will they leave the area? W says that they are not using domestic laws here. End of tape 1.

MA - asks what tapes these are. LB says that these are the other tapes that Harry Rankin had been asking about.

Tape 2: Mercredi says that he takes issue with the means that the camp is using in trying to resolve issues. He wants to know what guarantees he has that the camp will leave. W says that as soon as the letter goes to the Privy Council, they will leave. Mercredi asks what right W has to have one lawyer represent all natives across Canada and how does Mercredi know that Clark has the knowledge to do this? W says that this is the first step to getting justice. Mercredi asks how he knows that this paper isn't just a way of forwarding W's lawyer.

Mercredi wants to talk about something other than the law - something that is real. W says that the law is real. Mercredi asks what the result will be if the RCMP move in. W says that they will not move. Mercredi asks what else will happen. W says he doesn't know. Mercredi doesn't want to see anyone killed.

W says that a Cst. Findley did investigation of the land. Tape ends.

L/ LB cont'd with Agnes Snow - AS recognizes the videos we watched as being of the meetings she attended with Mercredi. LB wants this to be made an exhibit as soon as the excerpt has been edited from the original tape. No more questions.

W - speaks Shuswap to AS with the interpreter translating. W says that he was told a long time ago that this place was made a long time ago for all of us. The head Chief made this. Subchiefs were involved. W breaks into English. The interpreter is not getting this right. W asks AS who made the agreement for the Black Dome area - the original Chiefs or the elected Chiefs? AS says that she isn't sure of the question. W asks if it was hereditary Chiefs or elected Chiefs that marked out the land. AS looks blank and confused. She says that her grandfather was Chief at that time. W says he was a subchief. W names the head Chiefs from the Shuswap and Okanagan. AS hadn't heard of this. W breaks into Shuswap again.

He says that these four Chiefs went to the Queen in 1924. AS can only remember her mother telling her that the Shuswap Chiefs got money together to go to Vancouver to deal with the land question. That's how she remembers it.

W says that Neskonlith mentioned this a long time ago. AS hadn't heard of this. W says that this was written a long time ago by the Creator. W, in English, says that this has been done away by the elected people. AS asks what his question is. He says that the elected people are trying to do away with a system put in by the traditional people. AS says that she can't be putting away something she never heard about. W suggests that with AS in the land claims, she would have researched this. AS says that her people have lived in this area for as long as she can remember and have looked after the land. She says that they have stayed in their territory and don't go into other people's territories. She has been in Canoe Creek since she was born in 1946 and says that they are struggling as a community since dealing with the residential school. W asks about the 17 Bands in the Shuswap Nation and understands that he is still part of that nation. AS says that you have to look at the way things really are. She says that she is from Canoe Creek and that is her home. W asks if it wouldn't be better for all 17 Bands to go in together as a nation to go for a treaty if that is the way to go. She says that she agrees in a way, but can not dictate to her members in the way they want to go.

W asks that if the Constitution protects the native people, wouldn't it be better for the 17 Bands to get together and don't deal with Canada at all. AS says that they used to talk a lot, but things have changed the way things are today. She says that with the residential school and with the government that is in their country, things have changed and she can't force her people to do something. She takes direction from them.

W says that during the standoff, members of the Cariboo Tribal Council said they had no claim in the area. AS says that she never said that. W says that the media said that the Council members said that. She understands that what the issue was really about was Percy having trouble with the ranchers. W reminds her of a meeting they had at Gustafsen Lake and reminds her that he said that the Queen should be brought in. W asks if this is the way it should be done. AS says it's a hard question. AS says Indian people say that they have never ceded the land to anyone. W says that they are dealing with the Queen and she should be brought in to deal with the dispute. AS says that before she would agree with something like this, every person should be consulted first. She says that what W says may be true, but we have to talk to the people.

W asks if she agrees that the Constitution entrenches the 1763 Royal Proclamation. He shows her a copy of the Royal Proclamation and asks if she agrees that the Crown protects their rights. LB objects that this puts the Chief in a difficult position. W asks that if this is constitutionally protected, then why can't he put it to her. J agrees with LB that it is law that W wishes AS to interpret. W objects to the objection. There are cheers from the gallery. The J says that that kind of outburst isn't fair to the jury and will not be tolerated. He will clear the gallery if it happens again.

W asks that the Royal Proclamation be made an exhibit. It is.

W says that in 1875, the federal government struck down the B.C. Land Acts. He asks AS if she realizes that she is negotiating the land with an illegal government. AS says that there is a "devolution of power" going on in Canada. W says the New World Order. AS: "That's right." She says that the community is looking at where the world is going and trying to figure out what is happening.

W asks why it is that the treaty negotiations are only going on now - why did it take so long? AS smiles and says that over the years, she has been asking the same question. She says that in the past, the government could take what they wanted without treaties. W suggests that it is a way of legitimatizing the theft for NAFTA. AS couldn't say that. W says that the Indian people are the only people standing in the way for the legalized theft of the resources. AS agrees that her people are the only ones standing in the way because they never made any treaties. W asks if she would agree that he was standing up for her rights. LB objects. J is concerned that this is turning into a debate.

AS says that she would like to think that she could stand up for her own rights. W says that entering into treaty talks is not standing up for her rights - it undermines the rights of the land for the children to come. AS says that she has her own way of thinking, as do the people. She can't decide for the people what they want. She says that the people have the ability to think for themselves and they have to plan for the future.

AS agrees with W that Lyle James has fee simple title. W asks how he got it. She says that Jim Synes had fee simple title to it before James and James got it from him. W asks how the Crown could sell land to a third party if the Duty of Disallowance said that they couldn't do that. W asks if her people sold the land. She denies this. W says that there are only two ways to get the land - from purchase or from treaty. If the land wasn't treatied or sold, how did James get the land? J asks if he's asking this again. W says that if that was her answer, then that's all the questions he has.

ST - wants to delay his questions until he has gone through his disclosures. He indicates a thick sheaf of papers which he just received this morning.

GW stumbles to the podium trying to get his pants out of his cowboy boots. Chuckles from the jury.

GW - AS confirms that she was born in Canoe Creek, but left when she was young to go to residential school. She agrees that she only began living in the community full-time since 1989. She confirms that Jimmy Rosette is a man in his 90's who is an elder in the area and a well-known cowboy. He lived across the Fraser River at Gang Ranch, but moved to Canoe Creek recently.

AS agrees that Chief Tinmusket was a Chief in the area a long time ago. She agrees that the natives traditionally kept history in an oral fashion and that elders would pass down stories to the younger people. GW says that the court should not be confused with thinking that the word "Chief" is the same as the word "leader". AS doesn't know what he's getting at. GW says that the title "Chief" through the Indian Act System has been imposed on the Indian people. AS agrees that this is how she understands it. GW suggests that in a native community, the "leaders" are not necessarily the "Chiefs". AS remembers her mother, who is now 93-years-old, saying that when she grew up, the Chief held the people's hands. GW says that he asks this because she must realize that there are people in the Shuswap Nation who are traditional people that do not follow the Band system, like W. AS agrees. GW suggests that these people who don't follow the Band system have their own leaders. AS says that she will answer it this way - she has no quarrels with other groups. She says there are different groups just like in the "white system". She agrees that there are politics in the native community.

GW asks if the area that Jimmy Rosette grew up in by Gustafsen Lake was regarded as a sacred area. AS says that she only knew the area as a fishing area where people hunted.

She agrees that the lake is man-made because her father helped build it. She agrees this was made in the 1930s. She said it was flooded because it was full of swamps and would be good for flooding.

AS identifies the dam on the large aerial photograph. She says that she couldn't identify the water slews that were there prior to the 1930s because she wasn't born then. GW pulls out the exhibit marked for identification. This is the old archival document that discusses the transfer of land to Nils Gustafsen. AS has never seen these papers before. She agrees that on one paper, it describes the property as being at the end of a lake. On another paper, there is a reference to two lakes. She hasn't seen this paper either, but has heard of Nielsen Lake.

GW says that during this trial they have heard of a fenceline. GW looks on the large aerial photo for the fence, but can't find it. GW suggests that the J take the break now while he looks for it. J sees on the clock that it is still early and encourages GW to give it one more try. Laughter from the gallery. GW finds it!

GW asks AS if she knows about these caribou fences and about the Camille family building them. AS says that she remembers her father working on these fences when she was 5 or 6 years old. She doesn't really recognize the fences on the large photograph.

AS agrees that Archie is a popular name in the area. She doesn't recall Grant Archie. GW suggests that this is because she doesn't go up to the Canim Lake area much. She agrees that the people in the other areas are Shuswap and that they speak the Shuswap language.

GW asks AS to recall a meeting in July of '95. She recalls this. GW asks if she was aware of a meeting planned for Aug. 21st to deal with the issues of Percy being on the grounds and other allegations. She only remembers the June and July meetings. AS agrees that the Sundance took place in July and there were a number of people there, like Dac Hill. GW asks if she knows who was in the camp in August '95. LB objects. J agrees this is hearsay.

AS agrees that she heard on the news the police calling the people in the camp terrorists and that Ernie Archie and David Pena were picked up with weapons. AS says that she was surprised to hear this. She knew Ernie Archie and never thought he was a terrorist. She had known him from the residential school, but didn't see him that often. She was very surprised to hear that he was called a terrorist. She agrees that she heard the police say this. GW asks if she wondered who was in the camp. She says that people in her community were saying that "everyone" was still in the camp, but she didn't know who "everybody" was.

AB/ GW says that DC will begin his cross now because he has an appointment soon. GW will complete his afterwards.

DC - AS agrees that she said earlier that Lyle James has fee simple title to the land in the Gustafsen Lake area. AS doesn't know where his land starts and ends on the large aerial photo. She knows it's on the north side of the lake. She agrees that this is part of the land that her Band is making a claim to. As far as she knows, her Band has never sold this land, no treaty has been signed and the Queen has never intervened. She agrees that she believes that the land is native land and that Lyle James doesn't actually own the land.

AS agrees that the lake was created and changed the original river to a lake.

She was aware of smallpox sweeping the area, but isn't sure that there is a burial ground in the Gustafsen Lake area. She says they are researching this now.

AS agrees that part of her job is to look after the administration of the Band. She agrees that she isn't a spiritual leader. She agrees that there is a traditional Shuswap spirituality. She won't go so far as to say that Percy is a follower of that spirituality with the Sundance. She agrees that Percy was on the land there during the Sundance. Percy was never consulted regarding agreements about the Sundance, but she says that John Stevens was.

She agrees that she is paid money by the Minister of Indian Affairs and that she is responsible for distributing this federal government money to her Band. She says that she was elected as Chief by about 30 people.

Regarding the land claims, DC asks if she would take money in lieu of land. AS says that this still has to be looked at. She says that they are at the stage of going to the community to see what they want. She confirms that they would have to get more than the 30 people that voted for her to make this process useable. She says that all 600 members would participate in the vote and 70% would be required to proceed with the land claim.

DC asks if the process involves filling out government-created forms. She says that they would be working together to come to an agreement. DC asks if the 17 Bands that make up the Shuswap Nation are like the ten provinces that make up Canada. She agrees. She also agrees that the Shuswap Nation was never conquered by Canada and that Canada and the Shuswap Nation would deal with each other as equals. DC suggests that a problem between two groups would have to be solved by an independent third party - like the Queen. AS says that she can't deal with this at the table where she is working. She would have to get consent from all the people to do this first.

AS agrees that she has gone the path of negotiations to get the land back. She agrees that the 1763 Royal Proclamation she read is entrenched in the Constitution. DC suggests that the process that W is going after may be correct. She says this might be so, but first her people have to research this and put it to the people in the community. DC suggests that she would do this to protect the land for the seven generations yet to come. She agrees. DC suggests that W was doing the same thing. AS says that at the time, she didn't really know what was going on.

DC suggests that she had earlier said that the old way to deal with things was to talk and talk. She agrees that this is what they were doing in the summer and that everything got crazy after the police called the camp terrorists and said that weapons they found had come from Gustafsen Lake. AS says that later, she became aware of armed police going in. DC asks if she supported this kind of armed force to deal with things. AS says that she isn't in charge of the RCMP. She knows that following this, the police tightened up around the camp and the standoff resulted.

GW - AS agrees that after the RCMP arrested Ernie Archie, she didn't go to the police telling them to go into the camp and arrest the people there. She recalls the police claiming they were shot at, but doesn't remember if this was Aug. 18th. She says that she never asked the police to go in to Gustafsen Lake.

She has no idea how many police went into the camp area on Aug. 18 nor how they were dressed. She agrees that there would be nothing unusual about having a hunting rifle in the Gustafsen Lake area.

GW asks if there are deer and moose in the area. AS replies with a laugh, "There used to be." GW and AS both laugh. She admits that there are still deer and moose there.

Alkali Lake is 32 km from Dog Creek. She is aware of the Robbins family being there. She knows a Francis Johnson at Alkali. She is not aware of Johnson phoning the police on Aug. 18th regarding an incident at Gustafsen Lake. The Francis Johnson she knows is in his fifties and has lived in Alkali Lake a long time.

Regarding her visit to the camp with Mercredi, GW asks who asked her to go in there. She says that her people were concerned about what was going on and asked Mercredi to get a meeting going. She denies being asked by an officer to go have a meeting in the camp. She admits to speaking to Staff Sgt. Sarich following the meeting. Sarich called her following a report by the ranchers regarding a problem between Percy and the cowboys. AS says it's not unusual to have the police inform her of problems in the community.

During the Mercredi meeting in the camp, AS says that this was the first time she saw W. AS agrees that there were people in the camp wearing bandannas. She says that some of the people she saw there, she later recognized on TV.

GW plays a video clip from Mercredi's visit. He stops the video on a person who is holding a drum wearing a shirt that says "Sovereignty is the issue, Canada is the problem". AS says that she doesn't recognize the person. She agrees that the RCMP press conference led a lot of people to come to the area that she didn't recognize. AS says that one of the ladies that was with her group spoke to this man, but she never spoke to him. AS agrees that when she was in there, she wasn't threatened nor did she see anyone point any weapons at her. She estimates that there were about 30 people in the camp. She denies that the police asked her how many people were in the camp. No police officers came in with them.

AS agrees that the police had closed off the roads during these meetings in the camp. She says that she was concerned when she learned that the communications had been cut off by the police because when that happens, "it's scary."

The press conference she had in 100 Mile House was at the Red Coach Inn. She was not told to hold the conference. This was the first time she had met Montague. GW asks who paid for the conference room. AS knows it wasn't the Band. GW suggests that this was an RCMP press conference room. AS doesn't know because other people were also using it.

MA - asks that he have more time to look over disclosures and invites SF to begin her cross.

SF - would like the same. She does want to know if AS had any notes because the Defense didn't receive any. She also wonders if any of the meetings with the Bands were videotaped. J says that the Crown can look into this.

MA will ask a few questions to finish the day. J is glad.

MA - AS says she is an elected Chief, but her grandfather was a traditional Chief. MA shows her the map of the land claimed by the Cariboo Tribal Council.

AS says that there are two Councils that make up the Shuswap Nation. She says that there were a lot more Shuswap people in her grandfather's time.

She says that many died because of chickenpox. MA suggests a number of Shuswap died from polio-infested blankets that were distributed by the white people. MA corrects himself and asks about smallpox-infested blankets. AS had heard this from documentaries and assumes that it occurred.

AS says that residential school was the toughest thing that ever happened to their people. Their language, culture, spirituality was taken away. People were sexually abused and there was a lot of pain. She was there for ten years. The Shuswap beliefs were taken away. The traditional way was for the elders to pass on the beliefs. This was taken away by alcohol and the schools. She says that they are now coming out of that. They are now rebuilding their communities. People are now trying to find their roots.

MA asks about the spirituality of the Shuswap people. AS agrees that she attended the site of the Sundance arbour when it was taken down. MA asks what the traditional beliefs are of the Shuswap people. AS says that because of the residential schools, many people believe in the Catholic religion, but before her mother's time, they believed in the Creator. She says that the elders in their community don't like to talk about this now because they are misused. She agrees that the sweats are part of the Shuswap traditional spirituality. She agrees that in the ten years of her schooling, she was taught the Catholic beliefs. MA suggests that the Sundance is a way of reviving native spirituality. AS says that she doesn't know if this is from their area, but agrees that the Sundance is a native spiritual ceremony and not European. She just doesn't know if it was always in her area.

AS agrees that one way or another, she and other native people are trying to get their land back. "That's what I've been saying all day today." She agrees that the native way is to talk and talk and talk. She also agrees that the RCMP cut off communications and tightened the perimeter.

  * Monday, December 9 - no court         * Day 90: Thursday, December 12
  * Tuesday, December 10 - no court       * Day 91: Friday, December 13
  * Day 89: Wednesday, December 11