Trial, Week 9: Summary - September 18


WEEK 9: SEPTEMBER 16 - 20, 1996

   * Day 39: Monday, September 16            * Day 42: Thursday, September 19
   * Day 40: Tuesday, September 17           * Day 43: Friday, September 20
   * Day 41: Wednesday, September 18


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Jury out.

ST - Makes an issue of the late money for the Defendants and wants an explanation for the lateness. LB says he knows nothing of it. GW says it's in his office now, but only got it late yesterday afternoon. ST still wants an explanation.

GW - wonders if video of Montague and Dosanjh should be made an exhibit. He will make a tape of the excerpt. J says he won't make it an exhibit until that tape is made.

Jury in. Cst. Kevin Mann (KM) back on witness stand.

DC - KM says he didn't know exactly where the negotiators were. He says he knows they were in the 100 Mile House area. On his statement, there is a reference to where the truck went before it was blown up. DC wonders if fallen tree area was where negotiators were picked up from. KM believes so. After truck turned around, there was discussion on the air about what would happen if the truck passed the water hole. KM says that the Red Bison and Nelson ERT were further south of the data sheet and they didn't want two people from the camp on the ground between the two police groups (EDU at the data sheet and Nelson ERT further south.) DC: "You don't ever want to have a situation where two people with rifles are facing 30 RCMP with a Bison and M-16s?" KM: "That's right. Not when their rules of engagement are different than ours."

KM is mixed up about what negotiators are referred to. Realizes that native elders are the negotiators that DC referred to. KM claims that the primary goal was negotiations. DC thinks this is just an excuse because KM could have called off the operation of blowing up the truck sent to pick up the elders. KM claims he didn't throw away the chance of negotiations - that the camp had plenty of chances before to negotiate and come out of the camp and surrender. KM agrees that the elders were at the fallen tree when the gun battle raged, but can't say whether or not they were there when the truck exploded. DC asks if he knew that one of the elders had a heart attack when the explosion went off. (One of the jury members is audibly surprised to hear this.) KM wasn't aware of this. DC says that that elder was Percy Rosette's brother.

KM claims that the occupants in the camp repeatedly showed that they were willing to use deadly force time and time again. Admits no one ever took a shot at him. DC asks whether the misinformation KM heard on the media was what his fellow members were told too. KM doesn't want to make comment on other people's comments like those of Montague or Dosanjh. Agrees that he believed the stories he was told of police being shot at, including the helicopters being shot at, natives "stalking" officers through the night, etc.

When DC suggests that the red truck could have been turning around at Percy's driveway, KM says he doesn't know. KM suggests that the camp occupants could have walked to the water hole instead of driving. Says the camp was told of no-go zone. "Obviously we didn't tell them where we were because that's not the name of the game at this time." DC wonders about the note to take the truck if it could be done safely. KM clarifies that this referred only to his men. If they could have used as little force as possible, that would have been preferred. Says that he couldn't have just gone into the middle of the road and say "police. Stop." And adds "this wasn't how the game was played at this time." Knows the only injuries on Sept. 11 were a heart attack, a camp member being shot and a dog being killed. Agrees that the first action of the day was blowing up the truck. Second was killing the dog.

Says that he was monitoring the situation on the radio. Within a minute of the explosion, KM knew the two occupants had ran from the truck and left their weapons. He says fairly shortly after, he said this on the radio to inform the dog team.

There is a reference in the notes of the team by the lake "giving assistance to the APCs". KM agrees assistance was by laying down fire because people in Bison were in danger since they were being fired on. DC suggests that some of his sniper team was firing at the Bison. KM: "They wouldn't be firing at the Bison." KM reiterates group on south side of lake consisted of Armstrong, Arnold, Brooks, Shinkaruk, Mercer the dog tracker and others. Maybe some Nelson ERT members there too. Could have been five to seven members laying down fire. He doesn't know how many were firing from "Perch". As far as he knows, none of his team opened fire on people in lake. Is aware that team in Red Bison fired shots at people in lake. DC says that first fire of day was blowing up truck, second was killing dog, third was fire from south end of lake, and fourth was fire from Bisons. KM says south end fire started after Bison took fire. Doesn't know why Bison members fired at people in lake. Agrees that he had fear during all the confusion.

Claims that he wasn't surprised by magnitude of explosion, but rather by the amount of dust and smoke. Agrees that the dust delayed the plan from going off as planned. Says that the Bison rammed the truck to ensure that no one was inside. Says that the Bison came up to truck and slowed down, touched the truck and then pushed it forward. Remembers that the truck had damage to its wheel and axle. The hood was also blown up and back. The other damage was caused by the ramming. Wasn't aware that the explosion had knocked the battery out.

Admits that he was offered trauma counselling. DC points out that there are differences in testimony given and that it's either generated by fear or that he wants to mislead the jury to justify his actions. DC asks which it is. LB wants DC to be more specific. DC notes KM's use of the word "brandishing". KM said during chief examination by Crown Counsel that Wescam told him that the people in the truck were brandishing weapons. He clarifies that Marsh's description was that they were carrying weapons in the ready position. KM admits Wescam didn't tell him of people carrying weapons. KM admits that Marsh didn't use the word brandishing, but claims Marsh said weapon was in a ready position. DC says that if HR hadn't objected during chief examination, the jury would have been left with KM's embellishment. DC: "How do we know what else has been embellished?"

DC also notes difference of purpose of the mission. In statement, he said he was to stop all vehicles. In cross examination by ST, he said he was to stop all vehicles that came in a threatening manner. KM agrees that this is what he said in the statement. KM: "It's easy to pick apart the statement after the fact." Claims they wouldn't have blown up a vehicle that wasn't approaching in a threatening manner. DC wonders what else "stop any vehicles leaving encampment" could mean. KM: "It could mean many things." Agrees that he completed his notes after his statement. Claims that they were going back on shift that night and the investigators wanted a statement in a hurry. DC reads from KM's notes of Sept. 10 which reads that "the purpose of the checkpoint was to ... take out the red pickup truck if it left the camp area." Agrees that there is no mention to take it out only if it was in a threatening manner, but claims that this was in his mind as he has said today.

Agrees that he has read the Operational Plan of that time period, but didn't know the negotiators were expecting a resolution within 24 hours. Says he wasn't informed of this. Doesn't recall when the plan was made to take out the truck.

Aug. 30 notes are of him flying over to "select surrender area and ambush." KM looks at notes. "If that's what's in there, then that's what I wrote." Says that they had to be prepared for many things. DC goes over KM's gaffs: use of the word "brandishing", discrepancies between his statement and his testimony regarding the situations necessary to take out the truck. KM claims there are no embellishments here.

MA - KM agrees he was involved in creating operational plans like to retrieve Suburban and helicopter insertion into the south. Agrees he prepared these plans and signed them. Agrees that Sgt. Gates reviewed these plans. Says that he didn't have to have Gates review them. Agrees that Insp. Edwards approved helicopter plan. Agrees he met with Gates. Says plans were made with Hodgkin. He typed them up on computer at 100 Mile House. Would then show it to Gates and then have it approved by Edwards. Regarding the red truck plan to lay down data sheet, he agrees that there was a plan that was prepared by Armstrong and approved by Kembel. Agrees that they were to hold that ground should surrender option fail. Hadn't seen plan so will review it over break.

MB/ KM has reviewed operational plan. MA suggests plan wasn't to hold ground or to stop traffic - it was to disable the red truck. KM: "That's not true." KM agrees that the word "ambush" is used five times on the first page. There is a reference to site where occupants regularly got water.

Re: Marsh's statement to KM. Says that information with Marsh came over radio and that it came over the air very clearly. Agrees that Marsh told him that weapon was carried in the ready position. Agrees that Marsh said that the rifle was held butt down with the barrel out the window. KM can't remember exactly what Eye in the Sky said regarding persons and weapons. Says that this transmission came prior to Marsh's observations. KM agrees explosion was around 2:00 p.m.

MA shows him pictures from book 5A of red truck on road following explosion. KM says the damage he sees is consistent with what he saw when he first got to truck on the 11th. Agrees the tire has been blown off the rim and the battery has been blown clear of the vehicle. KM says that he saw the rifles in the vehicle standing upright. Says he was around vehicle area until about 5:00 p.m. He did not maintain observation of truck personally from 2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. Doesn't recall that at 14:06, Insp. Kembel told Red team to prepare for another ambush. Says there was a lot of things happening at the time. He has in his notes that he was told by Wescam of two male persons with weapons. He agrees that this is what he recalls. MA has no further questions, but would like witness to stay around until next break.

LB - has re-direction and wants the Operational Plan MA showed KM to be made an exhibit. MA has no objections. LB asks KM to show where rocks on the road in the video are. He shows on small aerial photo the area north of the lakeshore on 1000 Road. LB asks if KM ever saw the elders' vehicle at the log before. He hadn't. LB tries to ask how KM would have acted had elders' van got through log area and passed in front of team. HR objects that this is supposed to be re-direction. J agrees.

LB - Next witness (#39): Cst. Mike Casault (MC) - seven years on the force. Now in Fernie - been there two and a half years. In August 1995, he was member of Nelson ERT. He ceased being a member in January 1996. On Aug. 29, 1995, he went to Gustafsen Lake area.

Sept. 11, his team was advised at 4:45 a.m. that they would be "activated". Went to Tiger South Checkpoint to back up Vancouver ERT.

Transported to cattle guard by helicopter to 1040 km mark on 1000 Road. A few members from his team were in helicopter, while rest was in second aircraft. Briefed that they would bring some supplies to Vancouver ERT and back them up. Team leader Rick Fraser was being briefed at time. From 1040, they walked along road carrying food, water, sleeping bags and own gear. They walked to Percy's lease south of Lakeshore Road (Lion) and 1000 Road (Tiger). Arrived at 10:50 a.m. He knows Cst. Kevin Mann and saw him after he arrived. From 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., he was briefed quickly by Vancouver ERT where data sheet was on road and then instructed to get some rest. They were given no idea when data sheet would be detonated. They were told that if a vehicle drove over the data sheet, it would be activated.

At around 2:00 p.m., he was sleeping when a radio message came on saying the truck was moving and to stand to. They took up position 100 yards west of data sheet, left of Bison. They were told truck was approaching data sheet. MC heard "a bang, a boom and then saw smoke in the air." Was told occupants had fled west so he joined dog team and moved west slowly. Then radio report said two people were in lake and heading northwest. He and group hit dirt road and realized they were on Lakeshore Road. They didn't want to be there, so they moved back to 1000 Road and met up with other members. He was with Staff Sgt. Forsythe.

On small aerial photo, he shows initial position to be near clump of trees just west of Percy's driveway. This is where he was when truck blew up. From there, they moved through thick woods and went northwest and ended up at clearing on lakeshore - the first big clearing west of 1000 Road. They made way along lakeshore towards 1000 Road. At intersection, a Bison passed them from north of 1000 Road and passed intersection. They flagged down Bison and directed it back to Lakeshore Road and westward. When they walked along Lakeshore Road, he saw no one but other ERT members.

After they directed the (Green) Bison, they went south on 1000 Road and returned to where the red truck was. MC and Forsythe went to truck and each took a door. That's when he saw a wooden hunting rifle in the vehicle. Since he didn't know if anyone else was in the area, he seized it. Rifle was older hunting rifle without scope, bolt action 22-250. The bolt was closed. Wood grained stock with blue steel. It had a clip with five live rounds in it. There was no bullet in the breech. He seized bullets and put them in his pockets. He stashed rifle in the bush, 30 feet south of truck. Rifle was on passenger seat with barrel down and stock up. He saw another weapon on driver's side of the truck in much the same manner as the hunting rifle. Staff Sgt. Forsythe took care of that one. Forsythe stashed that rifle in same spot MC did. They stashed it because they could hear over radio that members in APC were taking rounds.

Now crossed 1000 Road to east side and proceeded northward. Other Nelson team was on west side so they wanted to clear the rear. Later they got word from "higher powers" to retreat. He turned over 22-250 rifle to Forsythe. Whole team then retreated. At 18:00, they were back at 1040 marker and he handed five rounds over to Cst. Shinkaruk, who said that he would be seeing one of the investigators and would hand them over. He did this at 18:20. At no time did he ever discharge his firearm.

In Photo book 5A, on second page, he recognizes red truck that he got weapon out of. In photo 1436 of interior of truck, he says that muzzle was pointing downward at yellow object in photo. Other weapon was more towards the bottom of the photograph.

HR - Re: rifle he picked up. MC says this is a typical hunting rifle. Doesn't know capacity of magazine. Agrees that the way the rifle was carried, this is the safe way to carry a weapon without a bullet in the chamber, but says the safest way is to take the magazine out - this is the legal way to carry a rifle in a car. Clarifies that the magazine can't be pulled off and has to be loaded from the top down. This is how he unloaded it. Says that the second weapon may have been in the same position, but isn't sure. All he remembers of second weapon is that it was wrapped in black tape and that it had a strange hole in the stock like a pistol grip. Says they hid these ten metres off the logging road on the west side of the road.

When he hiked in from 1040, he carried pack of army rations, two sleeping bags, and some first aid gear. He was only told where data sheet was and where Vancouver ERT team was west of location. He was told by a Vancouver ERT member that data sheet was safe enough to walk over, but weight of vehicle would set it off. Doesn't remember who briefed him. Briefing lasted ten minutes and was with a few of his members, but can't recall who was with him. He was busy getting gear together for a 36-hour shift during briefing. Had been told that it was easier to wear extra clothing than it was to carry it, so he was wearing five layers. No one told him how the data sheet was really detonated.

L/ HR - MC thinks man who gave him briefing may have been Cst. Mann, but he's not sure. Was told that any vehicle that came by would be disabled. They understood that the red truck was used quite a lot and agrees that it was the main target. He agrees that he got notice to "stand to", which meant to get ready. He heard this over his earpiece, but not sure who gave the order. Agrees that he was already clothed and all he had to pretty much do was to grab his weapon. He carried an M-16 with a 30 round clip. His instructions were that the truck was not to go beyond their location. If it somehow got around the data sheet, the Bison would block the road so the truck wouldn't be able to get around to their rear. MC looks at exhibit 204 - drawing by Mann. Agrees that any vehicle passing by would be disabled, but likely it would be the red truck.

Says his team was about a dozen strong, including their dog teams. Doesn't know how big the Vancouver ERT was except that it was bigger than the Nelson team. They were briefed that there was a forward sniper position near the Lakeshore and 1000 Road. Says he heard shots, but didn't see anyone shoot the dog. He never cleared Percy's lease, though walked through part of the property. Says he gave rifle from truck to Staff Sgt. Forsythe and gave bullets to Gary Shinkaruk. In his notes, he mentioned who he gave gun and bullets to, but not that he had found gun in truck. No other questions from HR.

Defense has no further questions of this witness.

LB - Next witness (#40): Cst. Steven Holland Arthur (SA) - Stationed in Courtney. Member for ten years. Isn't currently an ERT member, but was part of Vancouver HQ ERT during August 1995. Cst. Mann was his leader. His role was to support operations there.

On Sept. 10, he was briefed at Command Post Zulu. Doesn't know who gave briefing, but says team members were there. Doesn't recall if Mann was there at time. Role was to set up an ambush site on 1000 Road near Percy's lease. He flew in to area south of there and then made way to Percy's lease. Was involved in clearing the property. Checked buildings and surroundings. Finished the clearing in the late afternoon. Set up area north of lease. Was there when data sheet was laid. Spent night at location.

Next morning on the 11th, some members laid device and others were sent south of location to observe road. He was sitting west of data sheet and was assigned to observe the north with Staff Sgt. Debolt. They were in trees with four or five other members. As vehicle came up road, there was an explosion with lots of dust. He scrambled up side of ditch. "A yellow dog came charging down towards their position and was destroyed." Says that Debolt fired a shot that injured it, but dog kept on running. He was given order to take it out, so he fired two shots and killed it. SA was on the 1000 Road when he killed the dog.

Got message on radio that truck was unoccupied, so they regrouped. Then got message that two people went into bush, one with a pink shirt. He went with Mercer and dog and followed track through bush. At conclusion of the track, they ended up at lake. Quite a straight track. Twice Mercer pointed out objects he thought had been dropped. First item was a magazine that contained shells and they found that in the first few minutes. He left it on ground. Next item was a pink shirt near end of track. Says they were being very cautious at the beginning because the people might be armed. Once radio message came that weapons were found in the truck, they picked up pace. Took him about 10-15 minutes to get from road to lake. Says he tripped and then saw two people in lake. With him were Mercer, Brooks, Watson, Duplantie, Shinkaruk. Shortly after, Armstrong and Arnold caught up. Group was all together.

When he first saw two people, they were already two thirds of the way across lake. They were swimming. He could see heads and arms. One person had dark black hair. The other person had lighter hair - like blond or light brown. This person was Caucasian. Other was native. Couldn't see anything else of them. Once two got to shore, they began wading. He could see them from the waist up wading. Both appeared to be stripped to the waist.

Just as persons looked like they were to go on the shore, Cst. Mercer directed a Bison to pick up people for arrest. Then he could here shots being directed at him. Saw twigs snapping above them and shots hitting the water in front of him. Doesn't think the fire came from the swimmers because they didn't appear armed. Saw that native had long hair and blond person had short hair. Now they heard an eruption of fire and they got radio message that they were taking fire. SA corrects himself and then recalls that when the Bison had come to shore, he saw two people raise their hands. Two people were 70 yards from Bison, wading from the water. He couldn't see people exposed in the Bison. Then he heard the eruption of fire. Bison drove away from lake into bush. He lost sight of the swimmers. He never lost sight of the Bison. Says it was parked 200-300 yards away from where it originally stopped.

Says that he knows Bison was under fire because members in Bisons reported this and he heard lots of fire. Also heard a ricochet. Clarifies that the fire that he and team received occurred when swimmers reached shore. Says a member said a vehicle came in from the south, but he never saw anyone firing at him. Says about five to ten shots were directed at team. They then moved 10 metres into bush and took up an observation position. He could tell that the Bison had mechanical difficulty and that the people were stranded.

Later, he saw blond person make way to a foxhole and then belly crawled to another position. Didn't see native person exit water. He was most concerned about Bison being stranded. He heard report of sniper position 75 yards away at two o'clock position. They "discharged firearms" at this direction. Says this was 500-600 yards away. He couldn't see any persons while firing, so directed fire at bush area. Says weapon isn't very accurate at that distance. Thinks he fired 30-40 rounds. Says he was firing to prevent harm to people in Bison to give them a chance to escape. Bison eventually drove out and team regrouped.

They walked out of bush back to 1000 Road by Percy's lease. They then walked back to position they flew into. They passed red truck on walk, but had nothing to do with it and didn't touch it.

On small aerial photo he shows where they began track next to red truck. They came out to swampy area just above point on east side of lake (where light meets dark on the photo). Swimmers came out on shoreline an inch to the left of triangle of roads in clearing. Bison stopped on shoreline opposite of swimmers. Bison then drove to top of road triangle. Position they took up for firing is further south on point. Blond person came out and crawled to hole near fenceline and then moved to another foxhole.

HR - Truck incident happened on Sept. 11. SA gave statement to Cst. Flemming, a special investigator. He gave this statement two days later on the 13th. He had written notes the day after. He didn't have notes with him when he gave statement to Flemming.

Arrived at Sept. 10 evening. He was with Vancouver ERT then. Used to work on log thefts. In his statement, he said that his role was to ambush the red truck that had been involved in a number of incidents. Agrees the plan was to set up a data board and neutralize the truck. "We didn't mean to blow it up. We meant to immobilize it and arrest the occupants." Marsh and Hodgkin report that they see occupants of truck carrying weapons in a "very aggressive manner." Explains that he understood that to mean that the person was cradling it in both hands with his fingers near the trigger guard. HR suggests that you would also have a bullet in the chamber if you were being aggressive. SA says even an empty weapon can be held aggressively. He notes that the truck hit "the booby trap".

Says that when he saw people in water, they were 200 yards away and naked from the waist up. Says he has good eyesight "with his contacts on". Says both people were slim. Can't say if white person was male or female.

AB/ Without jury. Funeral services are scheduled for Friday at 10:00 a.m. for the dead Justice. J will leave it to counsel to decide whether or not J should attend services.

Jury in.

HR cont'd with Cst. Arthur - SA says that within ten seconds of explosion, he and Debolt made it to roadway and truck. He didn't see weapons in the truck -just heard that on the radio. Says he was 25-30 feet from truck when dog charged. Dog was at truck. Debolt saw dog first and fired. Debolt is in front of SA, but SA's looking to the north. He was only a few feet from Debolt. He was told to "put the dog down." SA says Debolt hit the dog and dog continued charging. HR suggests that the dog was vicious, but SA says it was hurt. SA fired two shots and dog was 15-20 feet away at time. He was concerned for his safety because the dog was injured. Dog is on the road running. "The dog was upset, the teeth were showing." Says he probably would have shot the dog even if Debolt didn't order him to. Thinks Debolt fired twice. When dog was hit, it collapsed to side of road.

He didn't see rifles in car. He didn't pick up magazine that Mercer's dog had found on the track. Magazine could maybe hold ten rounds. Knows it wasn't a 30 round one like the type he carried. Looked more like an M-16 round than a 9mm. Ended up at lake and saw persons in the water. Mercer, the dog man, found pink shirt near end of track.

Fox-1 is reference to a helicopter. Isn't sure which Bison went to arrest swimmers. Doesn't think Bison fired at individuals, but can't be sure. On his statement, he says that "the Bison stopped in front of the..." Line ends there. SA thinks next word is "swimmers". HR suggests it says they stopped in front of the swimmers and shot at them. SA: "I don't see why they would fire at the swimmers if they were unarmed." Statement notes that his team took fire at same time Bison did. He says that distance between team and camp might be 300-400 yards away. HR wonders if he was concerned about shots 300-400 yards away. SA says this was a concern. He had his head down. Says that there were two sets of binoculars on team, but he didn't have any. Thinks Mike Arnold might have had a scope on his rifle because he's the marksman.

He heard description of Caucasian moving from foxhole to foxhole wearing a shoulder holster, but he never heard this himself. All seven or eight members fired at individual wearing shoulder holster because this person was firing at Bison. Says that if this person had a revolver, there wouldn't have been any danger to members across the lake, but says that person could have shot at Bisons. He's not sure if person with shoulder holster was firing. Agrees that the only reference to firing at this person didn't make it on to his "Will Say". Says he was informed by Cst. Ray Watson of person with shoulder holster, but doesn't remember who told him this person was firing. Says he fired 15-20 rounds at this time. Says that if all seven members fired 15-20 rounds, there would be 140 rounds. Agrees this is quite a fuselage of bullets. From booby trap to cattle gate, it took about an hour and a half.

Describes dog as 70 pound Lab. HR looks at SA's notes. Says he was 500 yards from Bison. People he fired at were 300 yards away. People were 50 yards from Bison. Wrote notes at 100 Mile House Command Post on Sept. 12. SA sees that he did note shoulder holstered person in his Will Say and that someone told him that this person was firing. SA agrees that if there is an inaccuracy in the dog incident, it is possible that he could be inaccurate about other statements.

ST - SA says that he fired total of 55-60 rounds on Sept. 11. Fired 15-20 at Caucasian person. Sgt. Armstrong was leader of his ERT team at ambush site. Doesn't recall seeing Cst. Mann at ambush site. He did see Mann at end of day at briefing. Role was to ambush vehicle by disabling it. Agrees that Mann used the term ambush during his briefing. At that briefing, people were paired up. He ended up with Debolt at the road, but his own role was to watch the road to the north. Doesn't feel this role was redundant even with the forward observation point. He says there is always a reason for what they do and doesn't feel it was redundant. SA was close to Debolt. Agrees that he ended up being paired up with Debolt, but doesn't remember who he had originally been assigned to be paired with. ST wonders how he can't remember such a detail. SA: "I just can't."

They never had a debriefing to discuss what happened. He had been an ERT member for three years. ST suggests that Debolt was paired up with Mann to take the passenger side of the truck, but SA didn't know this. The only person he saw before the explosion was Debolt and he never saw anyone until they later regrouped. He says that before explosion, he was with seven or eight members behind a log. Agrees that he was surprised to not see his partner with him. Says that his attention was diverted by the dust cloud and then the dog. Agrees that things like blowing up trucks, shooting dogs, firing at people don't happen very often and he agrees he would expect to remember this, but says that things happened very fast. When he shot at dog, Debolt was to his front and to his right. He fired instinctively. ST wonders why Debolt needed assistance to shoot at dog when he could fire as quickly as he could pull his trigger.

SA says he had a scope on his M-16. Agrees that after 100 yards, bullets can tumble, veer and loose accuracy. Agrees that for longer directions, you have to alter the elevation of the barrel. Agrees that at 600 yards, it's a difficult shot. He says he would be surprised if any of his shots would hit the Bison.

SA says that his team called Eye in the Sky to tell members at the Bison to get inside before they would fire across the lake. Says he was concerned about ricochets. Agrees that radio transmissions were chaotic at this point. He could see nose of Bison, but he could not visually confirm whether or not members were inside or out of the Bisons when team fired. He could only verify this by radio. Says that Armstrong called Eye in the Sky to tell members to get inside the Bison. He believes that Armstrong got confirmation that members did this, but SA is relying on what Armstrong told him at the time. Agrees that members later got together to talk about incident, but denies that this is when he found out that Armstrong got confirmation.

   * Day 39: Monday, September 16            * Day 42: Thursday, September 19
   * Day 40: Tuesday, September 17           * Day 43: Friday, September 20
   * Day 41: Wednesday, September 18