Trial, Week 11: Summary - October 3



   * Day 49: Monday, September 30         * Day 52: Thursday, October 3
   * Day 50: Tuesday, October 1           * Day 53: Friday, October 4
   * Day 51: Wednesday, October 2


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

JoJo is back.

J notes that none of the jury members have stepped forward with his earlier offer. "The justice system is indebted to you for your patience." J offers any way to help jury out in any way possible. J detects an impatience with the jury to get on with the trial. He hopes that, like the last couple of days, examination of the witnesses will be more crisp and to the point.

LB - Next witness (#50): Cpl. George Vernal Preston (GP) - Stationed in Hope, member of Chilliwack ERT since summer of 1993. On Aug. 25, he got request from team leader for eight people to take a course on driving Bisons. Next three days, he took course at Chilliwack. Soldiers from PPCLI (Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) showed up and said they would be driving and crewing Bisons. Teamed with Sean Maloney. Aug. 27, went to Kamloops. Sept. 5, went to 100 Mile House. Assigned to Red Bison, driven by Conners.

On Sept. 10, he got instructions at Zulu and afterward, set up an observation post at Percy's lease. Later in day, he observed eight strips of "data sheet" were laid out by technicians across the road. Purpose was to disable vehicle of camp occupants that went beyond their perimeter. He was to be with APC and to assist ERT members. The Bison's role was if red pickup was disabled, Bison would be used to strike truck and push it over so it couldn't be used.

On Sept. 11, he heard report that red truck was mobile and coming towards them. He told driver and crew commander to close hatches and door to reduce danger. He saw black cloud raise and heard explosion. Radio reported that truck was blown. He told driver to start up. In carrier was GP, Maloney, two Vancouver ERT, two EDU, and two army personnel. GP stood in rear left hatch. Maloney in right rear hatch. GP carried M-16 and Sig Saur. He wore black jacket with "Police" written on it, helmet, goggles and ERT clothing.

As Bison approached pickup, truck's hood was up so he couldn't see if anyone was in the truck. They struck pickup and stopped. GP told driver to strike it again. He was commanding driver. He and Maloney got up on deck to cover truck as two Vancouver ERT got out and checked out truck. Very short period of time between explosion to time APC hit truck. He later timed it at 22 seconds. He observed yellow dog running down road. He heard shots and bullets strike around dog. Dog went down. He radioed dog master to try to find occupant's tracks.

They raised ramp and drove north on 1000 Road looking for anyone to come out of bush. They got to intersection at Lakeshore Road and then started going back south. Heard radio report that dog team heard shots and needed assistance. They went west on Lakeshore Road. GP lowered himself so only his head was exposed. Same with Maloney. As they got down to lake, he could see blue car up near fence. Saw two people by car who got in and proceeded away towards camp area. When he saw this, he instructed driver of Bison not to pursue car anymore. At same time, he saw two people in water.

He told driver to go to water edge. He could see blue car was no longer visible. He saw that two people were about 75 yards away in water. Nose of Bison was in southwest direction. Nose was facing people. The sun was shining into the water at his face, but he could see that there were two people. They were wet and walking as fast as they could through the mud. People were facing to his right, walking parallel to shore. GP was aware, through radio transmissions, that Mercer and members of Vancouver ERT were near water to left of his location.

He fired two rounds in front of people and yelled "Police. Put your hands up and come into the shore." GP is a marksman and has competed competitively in handguns. He fired because people weren't looking at him and appeared to be walking in a blind panic. Following shots, people raised hands and started walking towards Bison. Sun was in his eyes.

High velocity bullet hit hull of Bison and debris of bullet hit arm and glove. Two more rounds went past his head. MA asks if Crown is qualifying witness as an expert. LB says that this is ordinary sort of observation. MA disagrees.

LB tries to qualify witness as expert. GP explains that he has had experience with weapons since he could walk, hunting with his father. He has competed in various competitions like practical shooting, silhouette competitions, handguns, etc. Has taken sniper course in Ottawa where he has experience hearing bullets fire over your head. He explains that while working in the "butts" (target area) of the rifle range there, he has noticed that there is a "crack" sound as bullet passes over your head - afterwards you hear the boom of the gun. Currently has 26 handguns and 16 rifles in his personal collection, which he is constantly trading.

ST asks jury to leave. ST has concerns qualifying GP as an expert. He's not sure whether this makes him an expert simply because he has experience with weapons. J admits that this falls into a grey area. Witness has experience that isn't common to all people. J says that many witnesses have offered the kind of opinions that this witness is putting forward. J says that this witness has a lot of experience, but isn't sure whether he should be qualified as an expert or just as a normal witness.

HR says we should just get on with it because it's building this into something bigger than what it is. DC agrees. J agrees and says that he will qualify this witness similar to the other witnesses, as being familiar with weapons, but not as an expert.

GW notes that JoJo is here today, but will be going back to Chilliwack tomorrow. He'll deal with this later.

Jury back.

LB - GP says he could tell bullets were high velocity rounds from distinctive crack as they passed over his head. This crack comes from bullet as it passes the sound barrier. Doesn't know how close they were except to say that they were close. The one round hit close enough on hull to make debris hit him. GP explains his experience on the sniper range with bullets passing his head.

GP says that the bullet hit the hatch cover which was to GP's left. Hatch opens to a 45 degree angle. GP says that the bullet ricocheted and hit his glove and arm. GP's body was facing the front of the Bison which was facing the swimmers.

GP told driver to go into trees to find the shooter. Maloney was low in the hatch, so bullet would have passed him before it hit GP's hatch. GP was wearing black jacket with "Police" written on vest. Hatch was to his side and his back was exposed. When he was aware of fire, Maloney dropped and pulled on GP's leg. GP faced direction of fire just as he was going down. He didn't fire his weapon.

Bison crossed clearing and took light trail that accessed the trees. GP told driver to turn around and go into the trees.

GP says only his head was exposed at this time. He couldn't see anyone in the treeline. Rounds hit the front of the Bison as it crossed clearing about 50 yards from trees. Rounds hit front as well as hatch near rear. Says 10-20 rounds hit him from lake to treeline. GP says he fired a couple of rounds into the treeline to stop people from firing because he was aware that Mercer and Vancouver ERT were still exposed across the lake.

GP says he was trying get to source of fire. He never saw the source of fire. Bison went into treeline and it started to hit heavy trees. Trees were falling heavily on vehicle. He tried to put his head up out of hatch, but trees kept hitting him on his helmet knocking him back down. Bison was still taking hits.

After he was knocked down second or third time, "I decided to stay down because things were getting out of control." Driver told him then that steering was broken. He told driver to turn wheel side to side, but that didn't help. He then told driver to get Bison into clearing. He says that Maloney stayed down after he went up. GP says that things were so noisy that he got tunnel vision and ended up focusing just on what he was doing.

In clearing, they decided to close the hatches in case anything might be thrown in. GP had Arseneault and Maloney stick rifles up and fire blindly while GP got up to open hatch. Says that before, each time he'd put his hand up to grab hatch, he'd see bullet hit hatch where his hand had been. He finally got hatch closed. Maloney fired out of other hatch and then closed that one too.

He called in other Bison because they were stuck. Says that rounds seemed to shift to tires at this point as they sat with the engine idling. He could hear the different thuds of rounds hitting. The heavier bangs were like .308 rounds and when these would hit, dust would filter down inside the Bison from the roof. There was only one light on at the time. He could see a little out of the rear viewport. Fire was hitting right side - that facing north. There are no ports to side. The heavy rounds sounded like .308s and they sounded like full automatic fire. His experience is that unless you're good with a semi-auto weapon, it's hard to make it sound like full auto.

14:25-14:30 hours was when vehicle was disabled. Green Bison didn't arrive for another 10 minutes. Says that about a 1,000 rounds hit vehicle. They were there for an hour.

When Green arrived, both Bisons dropped ramps. GP saw Smyth in Green standing in his hatch firing. He could see rounds hitting Smyth's hatch cover. As ramps were opened, he could see rounds hitting ramp. GP was amazed that Smyth wasn't hit. GP could see Smyth flinching as rounds hit around him, but Smyth kept firing into bush trying to stop whoever was shooting at them.

As soon as both ramps were opened, he could see the intensity of the fire increase. GP told driver that this wasn't a good idea. The Bisons got closer to each other to narrow the gap. A member climbed over GP's back and ran out across gap and jumped into Green. GP fired out of the Bison like Smyth had. He could see rounds going into Green and hitting the blankets inside. He didn't think this was a good idea, so the hatches were closed. He fired 13 rounds total.

After ramps were closed, they decided to tow out Bison. Later on road, they stopped and looked at Bison, he was amazed at how few marks there were on the Bison. He crawled under Bison and saw a shock absorber that had been penetrated. ST objects and wonders if GP's going to be made an expert in mechanics. Snickers from the defendants. J says this isn't funny.

ST and HR says that Crown shouldn't lead the witness to interpret damage that has already been identified by experts. GP says there were holes in the red pennant, the police sign and dents in the armour. Five of the eight tires were flat. GP and Maloney travelled back to Zulu.

At Zulu, he looked at hatch and noticed a spray pattern on inside of hatch. It was solid with these patterns. There was no damage, just a grey mark.

On small aerial photo, he points to where he saw swimmers. Says he fired an inch and a half to left of swimmers. Shows path he took to woods.

MB/ HR - HR asks if GP was in charge. "That's an interesting question." Army had agreed to drive the vehicle and ERT would provide security. HR says that the army's instructions were to drive police from point A to point B. GP agrees. GP says that he was in charge of the policing operations. HR suggest to GP that Maloney had said that no one was in charge. GP disagrees, saying, "I was in charge of the RCMP portion of the Bison." GP doesn't know if all bullet strikes leave a mark on metal. HR wants to know if he's an expert on bullets striking the metal. GP says that he has experience of this. HR wants the J to instruct GP to answer the question. GP agrees that he has never been qualified as an expert in the court. He has been qualified as an expert in firearms, firearm training, survival, pepper spray use and arrest procedures.

GP doesn't know forensics expert Carrothers.

GP says that as a marksman, he can keep bullet within an inch and a half at 200 yards. He says that if he had to put a bullet a foot away from a man's head at 200 yards, he would have the expertise to do that. Says that hatch flap is about a foot and a half away from person if he's standing. Agrees that he could hit the hatch to intimidate someone if he wanted to. Agrees that there are many marksmen like him that could make that shot.

When Bison was moving through the bush, GP thought that two people were firing at him because rounds were hitting the front, as well as at the hatch to his side.

Agrees that when you feel that your life is endangered, you tend to get tunnel vision and focus only at what is happening up front. He has trained students to break from this tunnel vision so was surprised to see he had it. He had to turn his head side to side in an attempt to break the tunnel vision. He was still able to detect that someone was firing to his side. He noticed the tunnel vision when he wasn't aware of what his partner Maloney was doing next to him.

During tow bar hookup, he saw nothing of it. He only had radio communications of what was going on.

When he fired at people in water from hatch, says that he was firing to right of swimmers, 50 yards in front of them. He had no problem shooting. Two people were not looking at Bison, they were focused on point of land. He didn't want them going to camp because he intended to arrest them. He also didn't want the camp coming out to him.

He says that he's not sure if the person firing meant to hit the hatch, but says the person got close to hitting him. He feels because he felt the debris of the bullet, that he was being shot at. HR questions the difference that when GP fires, it's not to shoot at the people, but when he hears fire, then he's being fired at.

GP says that the person's rounds didn't hit in the same place each time like his shots into the water had.

After they left the area, he spent five minutes examining the Bison. He didn't make any notes at the time, but did so at Zulu. HR looks at these notes, but GP realizes that there is no note of the examination in there. GP clarifies that these notes of the damage are in his statement that he wrote in Hope. GP agrees he was surprised by the lack of damage to the Bison.

ST - In Chilliwack, when he trained with Bison, GP understood that eight RCMP would be drivers and crew chiefs. There was no defined timeline how long this would last.

Following Sept. 11, he was no longer attached to Red Bison. He agrees that in Chilliwack, they had discussed how to use APCs under stress. ST says that it hadn't come up that the hatches would be a problem under fire. He agrees that they were told that vehicles would be necessary because of reports of officers being shot at.

For plan to disable truck, they were given instructions to arrest occupants. GP agrees that quite often, plans don't work and you have to make decisions outside of the plan. GP agrees that his belief was that there were heavily armed people in the camp. GP agrees that he was in charge because he was the corporal. GP says that Maloney was not able to direct the driver because he didn't have an intercom system on. GP says it would be difficult for a driver to hear yelled commands while engine was on, but it is possible. GP says that the driver and the crew commander were in charge of the vehicle. GP says he spoke to the driver and the crew commander. Agrees that the commands were directed at the driver. GP says that normally, the crew commander would tell the driver what to do. On the 11th, both he and the commander gave the driver instructions.

Agrees he earlier told the driver to start up the Bison. Agrees that the driver had a clear view of the truck, even in the dust. ST suggests that the idea was to ram the truck. GP says that they only "contacted" the truck. Agrees the truck wasn't moving and the hood was open. GP says he didn't know if it was disabled at the time. Says they hit the truck at about 20-30 mph. He agrees that he wouldn't want to be in the truck if that were to be recreated. He says he told driver to hit it again because he didn't see any response from the truck.

GP doesn't recall if he instructed driver to drive north on Tiger, though admits his conversation about this would essentially be a command.

Driving west on Lakeshore, GP saw car. GP agrees that he heard on radio that Mercer and other members were on lakefront, but didn't know where. GP believes that he was carrying hollow point bullets that day and agrees that hollow point tears up your inside more than solid bullets. At 200 yards, he says that it depends on what bullet strikes as to whether bullets deform or not. He says that at 1,000 yards, it might deform or might not. He doesn't know. He says he has shot deer with an M-16 with hollow points and has seen some deform and some not at different ranges.

GP says that the furthest he has fired his M-16 is 600 metres. He agrees that it would go further if fired at 45 degree angle. ST suggests that a fired M-16 bullet could be dangerous 2 km away and GP says that this is possible. ST asks if someone 1,300 metres from where Bison was, firing in area, wouldn't be able to place a bullet accurately. GP agrees that he wouldn't feel comfortable firing an M-16 at that distance.

On his hatch cover GP says he saw 10-20 splatter marks that left a lead fan pattern. Says that this grey fan mark could blow away and fall off. GP doesn't know if there would be microscopic remains on the metal. On Sept. 16, he completed his report. His own examination of the Bison was with the driver, Conners. He says that he doesn't believe an examination of the hatch was done.

GP looks through Ex. 5B photo album to find hatch he spoke of. GP says that photo 121 is of hatch. Photo is not of inside where he thought bullet struck. He looks for a photo of this. GP can't find any views of this. ST says that Cpl. Carrothers, who was tasked to look for this, never found those marks. GP says that these things did happen anyway. GP says he doesn't believe it's possible that he was mistaken in his memory.

GP agrees that initially in his statement he says Bison was pointed southeast, but later changed it because he was confused by the directions. GP confirms that he fired 50 yards in front of swimmers.

L/ ST cont'd with Cpl. Preston - After rounds hit his hatch, Maloney pulled GP down. GP doesn't remember Maloney shouting anything. ST suggests that GP fired more than just a few rounds into the treeline. GP says he fired a total of 13 rounds that day. ST suggests that Maloney was yelling help into his radio. GP recalls Maloney talking to the other occupants of the Bison on his radio, but doesn't know what. He doesn't recall Maloney saying "eliminate the shooter." GP agrees that the plan was to arrest the people in the truck. When he drove to lake, he was going there to assist Mercer and his team. Then he saw people in lake and assumed that they were from the truck so decided to arrest them, which was still consistent with their plan. He agrees that going into the bush wasn't according to the plan, but he says that he was aware that Mercer and others were still in the open. He says he hoped to arrest the person that was shooting at him by making him drop rifle by intimidating him with the Bison. He doesn't recall Maloney say "eliminate the shooter."

ST wonders why the hatch was left open and why GP fired into the bush if he was intending to arrest the individual. GP says that Mercer and his men were in the open still. GP agrees that he didn't know exactly where they were. He doesn't recall a radio message from Kembel to get out of the area. Says that he went after man to arrest the person who had tried to shoot him, as well as protect the men on the south side of the bush. He denies that he didn't heed the order to get out of the area because he never heard the order from Kembel.

When Bison was in trees, GP agrees that he was intending to take a shot at the person, but the trees kept knocking GP down. GP says that he was in the bush knocking trees down. ST suggests that there is no evidence of a trail of knocked down trees. GP hasn't been down there since that day, so he can't say.

In photo book 5A, GP can't say for sure that this is the same area as he was in. He sees a photo of a large poplar tree that has been knocked down. GP doesn't know why the steering was knocked out. He assumed it had to do with the shot shock absorber he saw. ST suggests it was knocked out after the Bison hit the poplar, but GP can't be sure.

GP says he only exposed his hand when he closed his hatch. Doesn't recall Maloney closing a hatch. He only recalls Maloney and Arseneault sticking their guns up to fire. GP says he remembers Arseneault sticking more of his body up to try to close his hatch. ST wonders if it wasn't a stupid decision to go into unknown territory when he was told that the camp had such dangerous weapons. GP maintains that there were people on the ground that he was asked to assist.

He agrees that he abandoned the plan to arrest the two people.

On the night of the 11th, he went to 100 Mile House Command Centre to review the Wescam video. He doesn't recall Maloney being there. GP says he viewed the footage because he didn't see everything that happened and this helped him fill in the missing pieces. He's been on force 21 years and agrees that they wouldn't let a suspect get extra information of an event because they might say that was their own experience. He says that he would have known where they were in the woods without the assistance of the Wescam video because he was watching from his hatch.

He says he wasn't removed from the Red Bison because of his actions. Says he asked to be returned to his family because his wife, who had a psychological problem, was taking care of his three children and she was under great stress. She told him to get his ass back home or she was packing and gone. A psychologist told him to go home if that was the case. Sgt. Gates was at debriefing. Says stress debriefing was made up of Gates, psychologist and others, not including Maloney.

GW - GP says that he gives "officer survival training", which deals with potentially dangerous situations like handcuffing dangerous people, high speed pursuits, etc. GP agrees that this kind of training doesn't include negotiating with people one on one. Says they have negotiators that are attached to ERT, but ERT doesn't want to know what negotiations are going on. GP agrees that ERT are in situations that are assumed to be dangerous while a negotiator is in all kinds of situations, some dangerous and some not.

GP agrees that tunnel vision occurs when people are placed in stressful situations. GP recognizes this condition and says it's based on increasing stress levels in the body. GP agrees that his stress level was higher than normal just prior to the truck being blown up. Agrees that tunnel vision includes blocking things out like auditory and visual input. Agrees that time starts to slow down. GW suggests that this is tunnel thinking because your mind doesn't perceive things as it normally does. GP agrees. GP agrees that he became aware of tunnel vision during chase.

Agrees that he later thought the minimal damage to the Bison was unbelievable. He claims that the disbelief regarded how well the vehicle sustained gunfire.

After explosion happened, and they rammed the truck the second time, he got on top of Bison to provide high cover fire. He agrees that the truck occupants didn't fire at him. He didn't know initially who fired the first shots, but when he saw the dog shot at, he assumed the dog was running for a team position and the fire came from the police. He agrees that he never heard any gunfire that day until shortly after the explosion.

GP says that he told Maloney to get on the radio and get a dog on the track because the truck was empty. He got this information from the two Vancouver ERT members that checked the truck.

On the road, he got information radioed from Mercer that he was taking fire.

Says the helmet he wore was the Kevlar-type the RCMP wore in Bosnia, painted U.N. blue, but they had painted them green for Gustafsen Lake. He wore "Beast" with "Police" on the back. On back of Bison was Buffalo crest. On sides were boards with "Police" written on them. GP agrees that Bison looks like an army vehicle. GP is wearing a green helmet and carrying an assault rifle. He sees people in the water and no weapons. Sun is in his eyes.

GP says that people in the lake would not have seen the word "police" on the Bison. GP says that he said "police" to the swimmers, but GW reminds GP that his vest says "police" on the back, he's wearing a helmet and carrying a weapon. GP agrees he fires a couple of rounds near people. GP agrees that he can't know whether people knew he was firing at them or not. GP won't say that he aimed in their direction - only that he fired 50 yards in front of them. Then he said "Police. Come to shore in front of the vehicle."

GP agrees that he made an independent decision to fire gun in front of people in water. GP agrees that he didn't interpret the people in the water as a threat. He didn't see weapons or bombs in their hands. Agrees that people weren't threatening people in the area either. GW suggests that there are only two ways an officer can use a firearm. One is to protect self and the second is to protect others. GP agrees with this. GP agrees that there is no policy in the RCMP to fire a weapon at a person for the sake of firing a weapon. Agrees it would be improper to fire a weapon at a citizen to scare them. He agrees that people didn't appear armed, GP wasn't threatened, nor were others threatened. GP says that people were attempting to escape. Agrees he fired first and then said "Police". After this, he heard rounds going over his head. GP agrees that he doesn't know how people in the water interpreted the rounds that went past his head. Swimmers may have put their hands up and then saw that even more bullets came past them.

GP agrees that the swimmers stopped when fired at by GP and were told "Police". He agrees that swimmers may have misinterpreted the following rounds. GP agrees that it is understandable for the people to take off after all this. J wonders about asking witness to interpret other people's actions. GW agrees to save it for his submissions.

GP agrees that Mercer never told him on the radio to please take out the shooter. GP didn't know where Mercer was. GP says that Insp. Kembel never told him to arrest these people or to challenge the situation. He agrees that he could have turned around and returned to the intersection. He agrees that he wasn't cornered, but Mercer was. GP knew that Bison was not an offensive weapon. He wanted to prevent the shooter from shooting at him or other people.

When Red was towed away by Green, GW suggests that they stopped a few hundred yards north of intersection so some ERT members could pick up some gear. GP can't recall this. He says that he never got out until he and driver did so at Delta.

AB/ Without jury.

GW says that there is a problem in 100 Mile House finding the J there to sign the transcripts from OJ's original bail hearing last October. GW suggests the transcripts be forwarded here without the signature verifying that the transcripts were accurate because "our court reporters are the best in Canada." The court reporter smiles. J will deal with disclosure problems MA had brought forward yesterday if there is time later today or else tomorrow.

Jury in.

DC - GP agrees that he is active in weaponry. Sixteen handguns and 11 or 12 rifles. This is apart from RCMP issue weapons. Most of the handguns are for competitive purposes. He says that there is a school of thought about hunting animals with handguns, but this is illegal in Canada. Agrees that handguns have been used for killing people. GP says he isn't comfortable with the thought, but he is skilled enough to kill people.

Agrees that he has fired at targets shaped as humans. Says that the RCMP uses human-shaped targets to qualify members.

Agrees that if he didn't shoot as a hobby, he could still qualify as a member with the RCMP with practice.

He says he could tell that bullets were being fired close to him, but is reluctant to say whether he could actually tell what distance they were from his head. When bullet fragments hit his arm after hitting the hatch, he says it didn't cause any injury. He was wearing a light shirt.

In photo book 5A, he identifies photos of rear of Bison in photo 116. GP never handed over his jacket or gloves to ident. member for examination. Agrees that there were bullet strikes to hatch, but can't offer explanation as to why Carrothers didn't find anything during his search.

GP says that he thought a lot about this because he thinks he was almost killed. DC says that this comment of "thinking a lot about it" was in relation to how many rounds hit the Red Bison. GP says that when he thought about the incident, he often wondered what he'd say if he was asked how many rounds hit the Bison. This is how he came up with the figure of 1,000 rounds. Agrees later that when he looked at Red Bison, he was surprised by how little damage there was to Bison.

In photo book, he can't say for sure if the photos are of the Green Bison or the Red. He expects that Cpl. Carrothers would have had a better opportunity and longer time to look at the Bison, but GP says some of the debris may have washed off. Says that some bullets may not affect steel. Agrees that there is no such thing as bulletproof paint. GP says that in his experience of shooting steel targets, sometimes the paint is not knocked off depending on the construction of the bullet. Agrees that bullets fired from across the lake may or may not mark paint.

He was not aware that the hatch he was standing in is referred to as the gunner's port. He wouldn't be surprised because that's how he used it.

To GP's knowledge, he doesn't know if anyone verbally arrested people in the water. He didn't verbally arrest people when they were pulled up next to water. He doesn't recall if Maloney shouted out a verbal arrest either. DC says that GP told jury that people in the water were attempting to escape arrest. GP says that he was trying to arrest the people. DC: "By shooting at them?" GP says normally, he would arrest people by placing a hand on them and telling them they're under arrest. DC suggests that he could have yelled "RCMP, you're under arrest." GP agrees he could have done so, but he didn't. At the time, he didn't consider that this might have frightened people or others around. Admits that in hindsight, he may have done things differently. Admits that never in his career has he ever fired near someone to arrest them.

GP agrees that negotiators and ERT have different roles. DC says that in normal police duties where two property owners are in dispute, a regular member may speak to two parties. Person may be arrested or officer may tell parties just to calm down. GP agrees with this. DC suggests that ERT is called in only when there's danger. GP claims that he has arrested people peacefully as an ERT member, but agrees that he never fired a weapon improperly during an arrest.

GP agrees that he hunts deer with an assault rifle with hollow point ammunition.

MA - GP was at two and a half hour debriefing on evening of Sept. 11th. Gates opened and then psychologist followed. Another person from Kamloops was there who had been shot at before. There were people there that had been in other APCs that day. Group was broken up into small groups to view Wescam video.

Says that he never had follow-up stress counselling, but it was available should he need it.

Agrees that Sept. 11 was an unusual day in policing. Agrees that after cloud of dust, things went off track. Says .223 fires at 3,200 feet per second. GP has fired .308 up to 600 metres and kept bullets within chest area. All of the above goes faster than the speed of sound and creates "crack" sound when it passes you. Says AK-47 round also goes faster than speed of sound. GP doesn't want to answer whether it is accurate to 100-200 metres. When he heard communications from Mercer that he was taking fire, he also heard about a blue vehicle. He isn't sure if that message came from Mercer or Wescam. When Bison got to lakeshore where swimmers were, he couldn't see Mercer. As he drove down lakeshore, he had heard that the people in the blue vehicle were shooting at Mercer, but he never saw people in car shooting. When blue car left, it was no longer a threat, so they disregarded it. When there was fire, and Maloney pulled him down, he agrees he could have had Bison turned around and returned to 1000 Road. He points out area on small aerial photo where he thought Mercer was. MA suggests that the distance to where he thought Mercer was and the clearing where Bison ended up was 500 metres. GP doesn't know.

When the Bison entered the treed area, GP agrees that he tried to shoot at person when he was hit by a tree. MA suggests that this was more like a battle or a war than a police operation. GP: "That's exactly what it was like. It was like a war."

SF - She asks if GP knows that the people in the camp had a legal position that states that the jurisdiction of the police and this court is illegal, treasonable and fraudulent. He didn't know this. He didn't know what the negotiators knew. Says there is a chain of command and information is disseminated to the proper branch. SF suggests that he didn't know that the Bison had entered into what the RCMP had designated a safe zone. GP says that there was an area that the occupants were told to stay within. When the red pickup went past that and past the watering hole and into the ambush, they attempted to arrest them. He was told that the boundary was Tiger Road, but went on to Lion in response to a call for help. He agrees that he is a police officer sworn to uphold the law and to keep the peace. SF: "Did you know that from within the camp, the peace officers were more like war officers?" He didn't know this.

SF asks if the police blew up a truck, fired indiscriminately at people and violated the safe zone, that the people would not see the police as peace officers. J says this is a submission for the jury. GP finally says that he is aware of no treaty between the Shuswap people and Canada.

Jury and Cpl. Preston stood down.

MA - says that he has repeatedly asked for the amount of ammo used by the RCMP and has received nothing. He has also asked for notes from senior officers, as well as an officer named Farrell. He would like an order for all the above.

LB - didn't know of these requests. J asks LB to respond tomorrow.

GW - Regarding JoJo, says that JoJo gets impatient quickly, but GW is confident that JoJo understands what he is here for and why. GW suggests that JoJo should be here in this courtroom except for specific Forensic appointments and the one week court break. Says JoJo is "acting out" now at FBI (the Forensic Institute). JoJo believes that all his communications are being intercepted and now won't talk to the psychologists.

JoJo is scheduled to go back to Chilliwack tomorrow and GW would like JoJo to remain in court except for specific days that he is required there. J concurs.

LB agrees and has asked Crown in Chilliwack not to hold him there. J asks sheriffs to keep JoJo here until there are further communications.

   * Day 49: Monday, September 30         * Day 52: Thursday, October 3
   * Day 50: Tuesday, October 1           * Day 53: Friday, October 4
   * Day 51: Wednesday, October 2