Trial, Week 16: Summary - November 14


WEEK 16: NOVEMBER 12 - 15, 1996

   * Monday, November 11 - no court      * Day 75: Thursday, November 14
   * Day 73: Tuesday, November 12        * Day 76: Friday, November 15
   * Day 74: Wednesday, November 13


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by Settlers In Support of Indigenous Sovereignty


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

GW - says that a serious incident has happened. Proceedings that were dealt with in the absence of the jury have been reported by CKNW - specifically about the accused getting $40 a day. GW has also learned that money was paid to an informant who tipped off CKNW this summer about the accused getting compensation. GW would like to have the producer summoned to court to explain why he is reporting things that are not before the jury. The report said that it was a "controversial" move. GW says that he is just giving the court advance notice of possible applications he may be filing.

MA - says that regarding the habeas corpus appeal application for Wolverine which was denied yesterday, he understands that it was reported on the radio and TV as well and doesn't know if the J wants to address it or not.

HR - says that now that the J has heard all the evidence regarding attempted murder, he wants a bail hearing for Wolverine. J asks that he talk to Crown to discuss how much time would be needed.

LB - says that he will discuss this with HR.

J - asks that GW tell Jensen his position regarding increased compensation for the accused. GW will do so before Jensen's appearance in court on the 19th.

MA - when asked by the J what he wants done regarding the habeas corpus being reported on the news, MA says that for the moment, he doesn't want anything done.

The jury is called in.

J notes that the interpreter is not present today for health reasons and asks for direction from the accused. ST and HR ask that we proceed in his absence.

LB - Next witness (#67): Brian Kenneth McConaghy (BM) - LB says that BM will be an expert witness regarding weapons and he will now qualify him. MA and other Defense counsel are willing to admit him as an expert witness. J thanks them and asks Crown to be brief. LB has BM's paper made an exhibit. BM works in the forensics lab in Vancouver. He is a firearm and toolmark examiner, which means he examines the marks tools and firearms leave. BM agrees that he went to Carlton University and has taken a number of courses on wounds, firearms, forensics pathology, wire types, etc. He has given courses on the above. He is involved in competitive shooting and was a gold medallist in long range shooting (700 metres at a slow moving target) in international competitions. Has studied international arms sales and movements in Somalia and Cambodia. He has given expert witness evidence about a 100 times. There are no questions by the Defense regarding BM's expertise. J says that the jury may hear BM's expert evidence.

On Sept. 17, BM went to 100 Mile House regarding the Gustafsen Lake investigation. He first went to bring up some equipment. He arrived on the 17th and heard that things "were winding down." He says there were no formal plans, but he saw that there were no expert forensics people there, so he called his boss and said that he might be needed. He was directed to stay.

On the 18th, he went into the camp area around 2:00 p.m. He recalls ERT members being there, as well as GIS and Identification (Ident.) members.

The EDU was there too. Insp. Gary Bass was there.

BM says that normally, members of the forensics team don't go to a scene unless it's complex. He went there to assist the Ident. team. He was interested in helping them locate and identify firearms and ammo.

He had never been to the area before. He walked around the various scenes in circles to get a feel for the land. He also noted the locations of shell casings, etc. He stayed out of the process of seizing items and would just help identify items when asked. For example, with shell casings, he would tell them the calibre. He would also be given firearms to ensure they were safe and then would read out makes and serial numbers of weapons so they could be recorded. He was there when a number of weapons were found.

When the hole under the tree was located, he was called in and he looked inside it. He could see a blanket roll with weapons in it, as well as a cooler. The cover was already off the hole. He isn't aware of anyone going into the hole until the bomb squad checked it out. He chuckles that they all stood back when a bomb squad member went in the hole and began passing things out. He says that the hole was 70 metres south of the encampment.

Once the bomb squad had removed a pipe bomb, BM went through the blanket and described the weapons before handing them over. This took place 15 metres north of the hole. BM believes that everyone at the scene was wearing surgical gloves and weapons were handled minimally. The weapons were then placed in cardboard boxes.

In the red photo album (Ex. 9), BM looks at photos, beginning with #1159. BM identifies photos of the hole where the blanket roll is still sitting inside untouched. He describes the following photographs: the custom cut wood cover, the clearing nearby, the blue cooler, bags and satchels, the pipe bomb, the bundle of rifles wrapped in a blanket, a rifle magazine for a Lee Enfield, magazines for AK-47, cardboard boxes of ammo (AK ammo and other rifle ammo), more satchels with more small arms ammo, the individual rifles. BM says that they didn't want to disturb the weapons, so he placed them on cardboard. He identifies more photos of rifles and one of a rifle scope.

On the 19th, BM continued being present as a resource for Ident. On that day, he was called to the encampment latrine where it was reported that they found something that looked like a rifle. When he arrived, the weapon was still in the outhouse. BM was there when the weapon was removed. He indicates which photo shows this rifle wrapped in plastic as it came out, as well as photos of the outhouse. BM isn't sure if some of the photos are of the outhouse or not. HR asks that he only deal with things that he does know about. BM points out photos of the found weapon unwrapped.

BM says later he was called over to the firepit near the log cabin. He went there and sifted through the ash. He leads the jury through the photo album describing this. He says that as burned components came out, he described them to the Ident. crew. He says he found components of three rifles: an AK-47, an FN, and a .303 Lee Enfield. He also found a tin which is the type used to pack AK-47 ammo, primarily used by China.

He also identified many different types of ammo and spent ammo. He says that near the road of the "Suburban scene", he found casings. He also found rifle casings near the "Bison scene". In front of the camp fence area, they also found more casings.

He also looked around the camp area, as well as in dugouts in the area.

On the small aerial photo, he says that there was a dugout near the lake by the eastern fenceline and one on the edge of a field southwest of the camp. He says that these were the two main dugouts of significance. There were also smaller holes and some areas where there were piled up rocks.

He says that in the hole by the eastern fence, he found casings inside. By the round hole southwest of the camp, there were casings in the grass nearby. He also found casings in the field south of the little hill, as well as a considerable quantity in a clearing where the Bisons were. There were also casings east of this area. Near the Suburban scene, BM found casings in the woods near a curve in the road. He says that he found the casings about 150 yards north of the felled trees that were across the 1000 Road. He says that these casings were anywhere from 7-20 feet from the road. In this area, he could see down the road as far as the logs. From the logs, he says that he could see more, almost to the area of the red pickup.

BM says that he was brought down to an area by a dog handler to the southeast corner of the lake. He says that there were about 20 rifle cartridges there. He says that the casings were in a neat little pile. The dog was trained to find these and was coming out of the bush spitting them out in little piles. Chuckles from a couple of jury members. He says that these were police casings, so he didn't investigate further.

BM says that he wasn't particularly interested in police ammo, which he knew the calibre and make of. If he knew that they had fired weapons in an area and he found casings there, then he wouldn't make an issue of this and wouldn't investigate further. He says the biggest quantity of rifle casings was in the Bison area. Along Lakeshore Road, he also found police casings, which he was interested in because he hadn't heard of shootings there. He says that later he heard from ERT members that when the Bisons left the area, casings were on the APCs and everytime they would hit a bump, casings would fall off. HR objects that BM is justifying why he didn't investigate and is being called only as an expert in firearms - not why he thinks the casings were in some places. J supports HR.

BM says that he doesn't recall finding any police ammo elsewhere. BM says that he is familiar with police weapons and the police let him know what calibre they're using. He would find out the make of ammo by checking with ERT members. BM says that ammo has a "head stamp" which indicates the manufacturer and the calibre. He found that all the police ammo he found had the same head stamp.

BM describes a live round. That is a military term. Another term is "cartridge". There is metal cartridge case in which everything else sits. In the base is a primer with a sensitive explosive. Inside the casing is propellant and on top of that is the projectile - the bullet. Once the bullet is fired, it is gone and what you have left is the empty casing. Some weapons eject the casing and others don't. Semi-auto weapons automatically eject the casings some distance from where the rifle is fired. Manual bolt-action rifles eject the cartridge right near the feet of the shooter.

BM says that the rifle casing will normally be found in the proximity of the shooter. The bullet will continue until it hits something or gravity forces it to the ground.

Calibre refers to the nominal diameter of the bullet. It also means the size of the rifle casing. That's why some rifle designations include the casing length, like 7.62mm x 39mm. Calibre has come to mean the overall calibre of the bullet and the rifle casing length. The key thing to note is that a specific calibre rifle can only fire that specific calibre bullet.

LB asks what weapons can be purchased and how. HR objects, but J allows the question.

BM says that "restricted weapons" generally apply to pistols and also specifically named weapons.

MB/ LB cont'd with McConaghy - BM says that restricted weapons are restricted to people who have FACs (Firearms Acquisition Certificate). There is also a restriction in how you carry the weapon, which requires that a person secure a permit to carry the weapon directly to the shooting range. HR objects that this isn't relevant as there are no restricted weapons in the evidence. J agrees. BM says that the next category of weapon is "prohibitive weapons", which are not legally allowed at all. This includes prohibited firearms and items like silencers or magazines designed to carry more than five rounds of ammunition. The other category is for standard firearms which require a person to have an FAC to buy or carry one.

LB asks that the weapons be brought out to be shown to BM. Ex. 47, the Winchester, is brought out. Wolverine says that this has already been shown about four times, "this is becoming old news." LB says that this exhibit was found in the pit below the tree. The jury foreman says that they have some problems finding the papers regarding the firearms because they have so many books to look through.

MA asks what the purpose of all this is as these weapons have already been identified. HR suggests that the witness only identify what category the weapon belongs to and whether it is legal or not.

BM says that the Winchester is operated by opening and closing the lever to load bullets. This rifle is a "magazined" rifle. It carries eight rounds. He says that casings from this rifle generally go right up or slightly to the right. LB asks if this weapon requires an FAC to carry. ST objects that this misleads the jury because BM doesn't note whether all people need an FAC. J says he can raise this in cross. BM says that he has fired the weapon and it is functional. He says it could cause serious bodily harm or death. He found ammo that could be fired through this weapon.

The next rifle is a Squires Bingham .22 rifle. It is used for "plinking" - hitting cans or for sport. He describes this as a semi-auto rifle with a magazine. Casings are ejected about 5-10 feet to the right. It too can cause harm or death. He found ammo for this. It works.

Next is a .308 Winchester with a scope. It can also cause death. It is lever operated as the other one, except this one doesn't have a tube magazine. It is in operating condition. He found ammo to match this. DC asks that the witness be careful about saying whether he found the ammo or if others did. LB says that some counsel have invited him to lead evidence, while others want him to go the slow and careful route. DC asks him to go carefully regarding the ammo. BM says that he found .308 rounds in a satchel under the tree. He says that this is slightly more powerful than the 30-30 Winchester. He says that rifle ammo sounds quite similar unless compared to much smaller ammo like a .22 or much larger military ammo.

Next is a Mossberg 1500 bolt action rifle. Ammo falls to the right and is a 7mm Remington Magnum calibre. It can cause death and he found ammo for this rifle. BM says that the scope on it is used for better accuracy at long range. It was operational.

Next is a Winchester 30-30 Model 94. It's in operating condition and can cause death. It operates the same as the first Winchester.

Next is a Cooey .22 rifle. BM checks his notes to see if it was operational. He says it did work when he checked it and can cause death. He found ammo for this rifle.

Next - Lee Enfield .303. Former military weapon which has been "sporterized", meaning the military features are removed, like the full length stock and the bayonet mount. There is also a cheek piece on the stock. He says that these Lee Enfields are easy to get in Canada because they are so cheap. He describes this as a bolt action rifle. He found ammo that matches this weapon. It was operational.

- .22 Lakefield bolt action. Working order and can cause death. Ejects to the right. He found .22 ammo.

- BSA 7 x 57mm bolt action rifle. It works, can cause death and ammo was found to match this rifle.

- Another sporterized Lee Enfield. It worked, etc.

BM is shown a bag with a scope in it. He says he doesn't believe he examined this as part of his examination of firearms. He says it would be suitable for most rifles larger than .22. It's very average.

Next is an FN-L1A1. Was commercially available in Canada for a time. .308 ammo. Can cause death. Ammo was found. He describes the complex gas-operated semi-auto operation. He says it is a military weapon and operational. It has a handle which makes them designed for carrying a long time. FN stands for Fabrique National. He says that they were available with an FAC. Since 1978, they were made a restricted weapon and more recently, they were made a prohibited weapon. This weapon requires a box magazine, though a single round at a time can be loaded manually. He doesn't recall if a suitable magazine was found for this weapon. He says he can find out. This has an SPF number which is found on the side. It is a rack number given to it by the Singapore police force which means at some time, it was used by the Singapore police.

BM is handed a bag full of charred remains found in the fire pit. It is an AK type of weapon. He says that this is a popular weapon available in Canada. It is the remains of a Chinese made version of this weapon. "It is obviously not in operation condition." Were it operational, BM says that it operates similarly to the FN. It takes a magazine from 5 to 45 rounds full. BM says that the term "banana clip" refers to a curved magazine for about 30 rounds. BM says that this weapon would take a banana clip. If operational, it could cause death. It fires a 7.62 x 39mm bullet. This type of ammo was found.

Another bag is brought out with the charred remains of the rear half of an FN rifle. It too has an SPF number, indicating it was previously used by the Singapore police department. If operational, it could cause death.

Another bag contains the remains of an FN. It looks like the other half of the previous FN.

BM is handed an AK. BM says that this is a Hungarian AK. It's a semi-auto version of the military version. It fires 7.62 x 39mm ammo, which was found.

It is operational. He says that a banana clip could be used on this and describes how it operates. He says that these weapons were available with an FAC, but are now prohibitive.

Next is a .22-250 calibre bolt action rifle. He says it's a hunting rifle commercially available and is operational. Ammo was found.

LB says that these are all the weapons he'll ask BM to identify. BM is asked to produce a diagram that he made that shows where ammo was found in the area. This is made an exhibit. It is an aerial photo which indicates what types of ammo were located where. Copies of this map are distributed to the courtroom and jury.

BM says that in normal circumstances, there are not usually many exhibits to sort out so they are easy to deal with. In this situation, he created this map to help him out, as much as for everyone else. BM says that normally, cartridges from bolt action rifles are found quite close to the shooter, but in semi-auto rifles, they can be chucked a long distance - sometimes as far as 40 feet. Casings can often indicate where rifles are fired, though not always, as they could be dropped anywhere.

BM notes that a group of casings will be found in a general area when fired from one spot. BM says that when a round is fired, a cartridge case comes in contact with a number of metal surfaces and will pick up irregularities from the harder metal of the rifle. He compares it to hitting a sheet of lead with a hammer in which all the irregularities are picked up.

He says that there are two characteristic markings that are left on a cartridge: those typical of a type of gun and those accidental that are unique like a fingerprint.

L/ Without jury.

J says that he has a letter from a juror requesting a day off.

DC - says that Jensen will be here on the 19th and has asked him to pay Francis Dick when he was away for the birth of his child. Jensen has declined this and DC wants to deal with Jensen about this in front of the J.

MA - also has a matter to raise regarding pay on weekends and suggests having Jensen come in on the day the juror needs off.

Jury in.

J says that he has received the letter from the juror and asks that as soon as they know whether they need Thursday or Friday off, please let the court know so he can schedule other things.

LB cont'd with McConaghy - BM agrees that the marks left on a cartridge allows him to link cartridges to specific weapons. On his map diagram, BM agrees that it links found casings with found weapons.

BM is shown Ex. 50, the Mossberg 1500, 7mm Remington. On his map, BM says that casings found are marked in pink. One casing was found in a grassy area south of large round dugout south of the camp.

Five other casings were found in satchel in hole under tree.

Ex. 51 - Winchester 30-30. These five casings were found in only one location -in a garbage pit.

Ex. 55 - 7mm BSA. Six casings found in square dugout by lake. He says that this kind of dugout is consistent with a small firing trench. He says that the six casings were in or around the white bag found in the bottom of the dugout. BM says that because the BSA is a manual weapon, casings would drop down to the shooter's feet. HR says that it's clear that the casings were gathered by someone and LB is trying to get BM to say that someone is firing from this area. J doesn't remember if the evidence was that the casings were gathered there. HR says that it's obvious that if there are casings in or around the bag, then they must have been gathered. J asks if the question could be changed to "suppose the casings weren't gathered, could these rounds have been fired from this one place?" HR says that this witness is being asked to be a witness all over the place. J says that the jury has heard how casings are ejected and they can figure these things out for themselves.

Ex. 56 - AK-47. 21 casings were found south of hill northeast of camp. BM says that the AK ejects casings quite vigorously, but says that if they were fired from the same position, they could be expected to be found within 5-10 feet of each other. BM concludes that this weapon was fired in the area where the casings were found.

Ex. 57 - bolt action with scope. A number of casings were found, but he wasn't there at the time they were found.

BM says that there is a weapon on his diagram marked "Weapon X". He says the other weapons were identified as police exhibits. He says that even if he doesn't have the weapon, he can determine that a number of casings were fired by the same weapon. He says that the casings found are of the AK-47 type like Ex. 56. He says that Weapon X casings were found in various spots. Sixteen were found near the 21 casings found from Ex. 56, indicating that two AK-type weapons were fired near the same area. 22 casings were found near the "Suburban scene" and had landed in much the same way as they would be found on a rifle range. He says the terrain where these were found was quite grassy and required a metal detector to find. Another 11 were found east of the "Bison scene". They were distributed over an area of 25-40 feet as individual firings. Last three casings were found in grassy area south of big round dugout south of camp. These weren't all together, but with only three cartridges, it's difficult to say whether there was a pattern or not.

Next casing type is indicated on diagram as blue in colour and is .303 calibre. Three were found in garbage pit. Five casings were found in treed area north of Bison site. This weapon was not recovered either. He says that the most common type is the Lee Enfield which fires the .303, but there was not enough evidence to conclude that the casings were fired from an Enfield.

An unidentified casing was found in a tent, as was another unidentified casing found by trees near the camp. He can't say what kind of weapon fired these.

"X4" refers to two casings found in the garbage pit. He says that these were fired by an FN-L1A1 made by the Lithco Company in Australia. He says that the overall marks indicated that it was an FN, but he says each factory has its own unique machining process, like Lithco.

BM says that there are four weapons designated "X". "X2" was a .222 calibre and no weapons of that calibre were recovered. "X3" was an AK found in the fire. "X1" was of the remains of a .303 and "X4" was of the remains of an FN. He cannot identify these casings as definitely coming from these weapons, only that they are of the same type.

BM says that he cannot say specifically when these casings were fired. LB asks if there is anything to note whether they were fired in the last four months prior to his finding them. HR objects that LB is very sneaky by leading this way. BM says that other than smelling a casing and determining that it was fired recently, there is no way of actually telling when they were fired. He notes that considering the situation, there were no alarms that went off in his head that said that these casings were too rusty for the time period involved.

BM is shown a bag with a belt in it with plastic ammo holders on it. They contain 30-30 ammo. He says that there are several weapons that would be suitable for this type of ammo. He is shown an ammo box filled with ammo. He says that he can't remember if he saw this box at the scene. BM says that the ammo found inside, like the 7.62 x 39mm (AK), could be fired by weapons found in the camp. There is also 9mm ammo and ? ammo.

Ex. 60 is handed to BM. It is a huge bag containing several magazines. There is a 30 round AK banana clip and a couple of five round clips. These can be fired from the AK.

Two boxes are brought out for BM to inspect. Ex. 61 contains a leather satchel which has ammo inside. The ammo includes 411 7.62 x 39mm for the AK. The other box, Ex. 62, contains a blue satchel full of more AK ammo. There is also .22 ammo. There is a total of 147 cartridges of "small arms ammunition." BM defines small arms as a weapon that can be carried by one person as opposed to a crew-served artillery piece.

Ex. 72 is of a bag containing a 20 round FN magazine. The magazine is loaded and is suitable for an FN rifle.

There is another bag with a Lee Enfield magazine inside, which is also loaded.

Ex. 98 is of a five round magazine for an AK rifle. There are also five rounds of ammo in a separate bag attached to the magazine. There is another AK five round magazine. This has ammo inside. Ex. 118 is an AK 30 round banana clip. There is also a bag of 30 rounds attached. Ex. 119 is the same as 118.

BM says that he also examined lead and bullet material in Sept. 1996. He says the purpose was to determine if any of the exhibits he received were in fact bullets.

AB/ LB cont'd with McConaghy - BM agrees that he prepared a report of his Sept. 1996 investigation. A copy is handed out to the jury. LB asks BM to read from the report to say where the exhibits came from. J allows this.

BM agrees that metal found in Cst. Clelland's vest are consistent with fired bullet material. Metal found in the Suburban truck was also fired material, as were metal fragments found in two APC tires. BM says that his chart is broken down into five sections with accompanying conclusions. First conclusion is that the exhibits in this category are "fired bullet material". They could be from bullets. Conclusion two refers to material that definitely came from weapons. The third conclusion refers to rounds that he can definitely say to be 30 calibre, consistent with bullets fired from an AK.

Conclusion four relates to material found in car pieces which he says were from a weapon. Conclusion five relates to metal that did not come from a rifle.

He says that conclusion #3 is almost definitely from an AK from China like those found in the investigation. There is a chance it came from a 7.62 x 54mm, but he says there were no weapons seized consistent with this.

Ex. 172 is identified as a fired .223 hollow point bullet. BM says that the police were using .223 in M-16 type weapons, and 9mm in HK MP5s and Sig Saurs. BM says that hollow point bullets are routinely issued to police in North America, like the RCMP. Solid points are used for training. BM says that hollow points have a hollow end which opens up and flowers upon impact. LB asks why police are issued hollow point bullets. HR asks if this isn't a policy question. J asks BM if this is a policy question. BM says it's more a practical question. J allows this. BM says that in a war, if a bullet passes through one person and hits two more people "that's bonus", but in police situations, if the bullet passes through, it may hit innocent people. Hollow point bullets are used to ensure that only the person hit is killed.

LB has a video played that BM says he has observed before. Will Thomas's video footage is shown (Ex. 224). The helicopter passes overhead. Guns are heard firing. BM identifies a rifle pointed upwards as an FN. There is a shot of a man coming out of the trees carrying a weapon. BM identifies this as an AK. Next there is a shot of a weapon on a car trunk. It is also an AK. BM identifies small boxes of ammo which he found in a satchel. There is a shot of someone loading a magazine. BM says that this is an AK magazine. The shot of the FN is identified as being from Lithco Company in Australia because of its unique carrying handle. He also notes that the painted rack numbers are consistent with the numbers seen on the seized FN. There is a shot of two people carrying weapons. One is identified as an AK and the other as a sporterized Lee Enfield. A man is seen walking with a weapon and this one is identified as an AK. There is a shot of a man standing by the latrine and he carries an FN. There is a shot of a man speaking and he carries an FN by the carrying handle. That is all the video LB wants to show.

BM says that in one of the shots, there were two AK magazines taped together. BM says this is done to rapidly change magazines. BM says that regarding the FN pointed upwards and fired upwards, it could travel 1,500 feet. BM says that this is 500-600 metres, which would be well in range of both an FN and an AK.

HR - HR asks about the question of the rifle that was fired at the helicopter. BM says that he cannot say that a helicopter was being fired at. He can only say that if he sees the rifle firing and the helicopter flying at the same time in the same scene. HR looks surprised. He asks the video to be played again. The video of the helicopter is replayed. BM says that he cannot specifically say whether the rifle fire he heard is of an AK or an FN. He agrees that he saw a helicopter in some of the scenes. They both agree that they saw scenes of helicopters flying somewhere and then heard shots being fired somewhere.

BM says he is a civilian working for the RCMP. He says his findings are independent of the police. He is paid by the federal government. He considers himself a scientist.

He says he went up there by request by the police and brought some equipment with him. This included .50 calibre ammo, a .50 calibre machine gun and a mount. He's not sure what this was to be used for. He understood this was an emergency weapon to fire at the camp to keep their heads down in order to get ERT members out should they be trapped behind lines.

HR asks why a scientist would bring a machine gun: "What scientific role would this be?" BM says that it isn't a scientific role. HR suggests this is a partisan role. BM says that they had the weapon in the lab and the RCMP asked him to bring it up, so he did. This is the first time in his career that he did this.

BM says that he generally doesn't do reports for civilian agencies. He claims he can't remember doing any civilian reports. BM says that he has authored reports for the Chief Firearms Advisory and he doesn't know if that would be considered a civilian agency.

BM isn't aware of his lab going around to lawyers asking them how to make the forensic reports more readable in court. HR says that a person from a lab came to him claiming they wanted to appear to be impartial. BM claims that they don't have to appear to be impartial because they are. HR asks if carrying .50 cal machine guns for the RCMP wouldn't remove this impartiality. BM claims it wouldn't and says he would do it again.

HR asks about the hollow point bullets versus solid points. BM says that it's accepted in military circles that if another person is injured after shooting a first person, than that isn't a problem because the whole point of warfare is to inflict injury. He has also heard of "flechette" rounds designed to injure a number of people at one time. BM says that the hollow points are used to ensure that only one person is hurt at a time.

BM explains what he means when he says "a bullet found is consistent with" a certain weapon. He agrees that when he says that a bullet is consistent with a weapon found in the camp, he can't say that they were definitely from the weapons found in the camp. When he says that a weapon is consistent with a Lee Enfield, he means it could have been fired by any Lee Enfield.

Regarding his Sept. '96 investigation, BM says that he received these exhibits with a flow chart of where exhibits were found by Cst. Leslie. BM says that he didn't ask for the flow chart - it came to the lab. He agrees that he got the exhibits from Madame Registrar. He got the flow chart from Leslie when he got exhibits from him in Oct. '95. These exhibits included those found at the camp site, the Bison scene, and other exhibits which he can't recall where they came from. These came with no other information.

HR reads from BM's report from Sept. '96. BM agrees that items that are "consistent with fired bullet material" is a pretty broad term. BM agrees that it could also have come from other sources, but says that he doesn't know of any other sources, so concludes that it would be pretty unlikely to find these other sources.

BM describes an armour piercing bullet. The outside would have a copper jacket, then a lead sleeve with a hard steel core in the centre. It can be of any calibre. BM says that he never found any armour piercing bullets in his entire investigation.

BM says that he was asked to look at several Bisons. BM says he never saw them all together. He saw them on the third day there, around the 20th of Sept. at Alpha. BM says that he was looking for something significant from a firearms point of view that Ident. could seize. He would identify features that Ident. could photograph too. He says he looked over them in a cursory fashion. HR asks if he found anything significant. BM doesn't know what HR means by significant. HR says that he thinks bringing a machine gun up to Gustafsen is significant or being able to do a standing broad jump to where BM is standing across the courtroom would be significant. Jury chuckles.

HR asks what BM thinks would be significant. BM says that anything that surprises him. He says that when he looked at the APCs, he didn't see anything surprising. He saw marks indicative of bullet impact, including dents and scratches, but nothing significant.

BM looked at ERT weapons. He looked at their guns and identified two versions of M-16s, as well as the MP5 and the Sig Saur. HR asks if BM would be surprised to hear that ERT members were using army ammo. BM says that he was aware of that. HR asks why he didn't say that earlier. BM says that he understood that they were issued army ammo, so he wasn't surprised to see that. HR says that BM's evidence was that he had seen casings consistent with ammo issued to the RCMP. BM says that he understood that the ERT ran out of RCMP ammo and used the army ammo. BM claims that the RCMP often uses ammo in practice consistent with army ammo. HR points out that this wasn't practice. This was Gustafsen Lake. BM says that he isn't prepared to say that you can always tell the difference between army ammo and police ammo. HR says that BM never brought this up on his chart or in his testimony. BM says that he didn't give it any thought because he expected it there. HR says that he didn't include that in his evidence to the jury. BM admits that was an error on his part.

HR notes that a lot more time today was spent dealing with non-police ammo than with police ammo. BM says that he was given information on the police ammo, but had no information on the other ammo. HR asks if as a scientist, BM isn't obliged to deal equally with the police ammo. BM says that if he was to deal with all the ammo found at the Bison scene, he'd still be there because there were a lot of casings there, so he decided to look at the unknown casings instead.

BM looked quickly at the red truck, but didn't investigate it, as he was dealing with firearms. BM had heard that a dog was killed, but never dealt with that. He agrees that he could have checked the bullets out had someone removed them from the carcass.

BM understood that the .223 bullet that he looked at came from an arm injury. BM says that it was consistent with weapons fired from the police, but won't say that it definitely came from the police. HR asks how he was able to make identification visually without microscopes like he required to make his other identifications. BM says that he doesn't always need a microscope and says that he can tell casings fired from an FN by looking at it with the naked eye. HR notes that we are talking about a bullet here. BM says that this bullet was not disfigured much. HR says that this bullet wasn't consistent with any weapons found at the camp. BM says that there was a .222 casing found and a .22-250 weapon found which is consistent with this type of bullet, but he agrees that this was likely a police bullet.

   * Monday, November 11 - no court      * Day 75: Thursday, November 14
   * Day 73: Tuesday, November 12        * Day 76: Friday, November 15
   * Day 74: Wednesday, November 13