Trial, Week 16: Summary - November 15


WEEK 16: NOVEMBER 12 - 15, 1996

   * Monday, November 11 - no court      * Day 75: Thursday, November 14
   * Day 73: Tuesday, November 12        * Day 76: Friday, November 15
   * Day 74: Wednesday, November 13


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by Settlers In Support of Indigenous Sovereignty

FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 1996 - DAY 76

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Jury in and Brian McConaghy back on witness stand.

HR - BM confirms that the Browning .50 calibre machine gun is a heavy machine gun. BM says it's a military style weapon intended for military use. It was part of the laboratory library of weapons. None of the weapons in the library are police issue weapons. There are three or four .50 calibre weapons in the library. It is not an RCMP issue. When asked who the custodian of the library is, BM says the Crown, but when pressed more, he says that the lab is the custodian. Head of the lab is Ron Cameron. Section head is Earl Hall. BM says that they got a request for the .50 calibre from E Division, which is B.C. headquarters for the RCMP. Deputy Commissioner Farrell is head of E Division. BM doesn't recall who called from E Division regarding the weapon. BM told the person that he would have to talk to Earl Hall before making a decision.

The Browning is an air-cooled heavy machine gun. BM brought up perhaps 150 rounds of ammo. It is a belt-fed machine gun and it would normally be manned by a three person crew. BM says that the Browning is equivalent to the heavy Vickers machine gun.

BM says that the Browning was never employed in Gustafsen Lake because things were winding down, so he had it stored in the armouries at Williams Lake. BM says that weapons are infrequently taken from the lab collection. He has seen it happen maybe ten times in his ten years at the lab. He can't recall the last time this occurred. It would have been some time ago.

BM confirms that the request came from Farrell, who was the head of all of B.C. RCMP. BM confirms he has no written documents regarding transport of the weapon - it was all verbal. BM says it would be fair to say that this was an unusual occurrence.

ST - BM says that the Browning they have is not commercially available. You can only buy a welded-up show gun. It is a prohibited weapon. Collectors who had them before 1978 can keep them, but after that date, no one can buy one. BM says that he didn't feel uncomfortable travelling with a prohibited weapon because as part of his job, he is given peacekeeper status. He is not aware of any other weapons arriving from other places.

BM understands that Earl Hall may have spoken to the number two man at the lab about concerns of weapon security. He says that they would have been concerned that the appropriate permission had been secured. ST suggests that as a civilian, he would want appropriate paper work to prove he could carry a prohibited weapon. BM says that he only wanted to make sure that the permission was authentic and that his superiors knew about it.

BM says that the .50 calibre fires five rounds per second or so. He admits that 150 rounds wouldn't last very long. Chuckles from the jury. He agrees that this weapon could cause death. BM agrees that the bullets would have the range to be deadly if fired from across the lake. BM doesn't think it has the accuracy to saw through a tree. BM believes there is a course in the military giving instruction to use this weapon. He is not aware of any RCMP who had instruction on the weapon. BM says he would have given some basic instruction on how to operate the machine gun. He says he has used it and could give instruction on its use.

BM says that the ammo was not hollow point and agrees that the ammo wouldn't be RCMP issue - "there was nothing issue about this weapon." BM says that you can fire single and double shots with the Browning.

BM agrees that "fire suppression" with this weapon would involve firing at an area to keep people's heads down. He says that 150 rounds could last a long time if a round was fired every hour. BM says that he brought up all the ammo they had.

BM believes that you can buy ammo legally, but it's hard to get. He agrees that the military would be a good source for ammo if the army would give some up.

BM confirms that the use of hollow point bullets by the police is to avoid extra damage to innocents. He agrees that this presumes that you have a target to fire at. ST asks if more people are killed by hollow points than by steel jacketed bullets. BM says that most of the deaths he has seen has been the result of solid point .22s. He agrees that he has seen autopsies of people killed by hollow point police bullets. He says that in identical situations, the hollow point bullet is more likely to kill than a jacketed bullet.

ST suggests that, BM being a marksman able to hit a moving target at 700 metres, he must be a small percentage of people who could do this. BM doesn't know. He agrees that the average Canadian couldn't do this. ST puts a scenario to BM. He asks what kind of dispersion could be expected if an average person was firing an M-16 from 1,300 metres at a target. BM says that he would have very little chance of hitting a target. BM says that the chances of his bullets straying 75 metres from a target is unlikely, but possible, if it was an aimed shot. If it was an unaimed shot, the bullet could go anywhere.

BM says that there were two types of M-16s at Gustafsen Lake - the long version and the short version. He says that accuracy may be a little less on the shorter M-16, but otherwise, they are the same. BM says that there is a legal threshold in the Criminal Code that determines what makes a weapon prohibited. BM says that if a bullet goes faster than 500 feet per second, he believes that it can cause serious bodily harm or death. ST asks at what distance an M-16 reaches the velocity which would not cause death. He's not sure, but is certain it would be over 500 metres. At a 1,000 metres, he says that a bullet would be travelling close to 500 feet per second (fps), but he isn't sure.

BM agrees he made a cursory look at the APCs. BM says he made the assumption that if it was important enough, the whole Bison would have been seized and he would see it anyway. He was never called to inspect the Bison, though he says he was available to do so. BM agrees that there were many ERT members he spoke to regarding the shootings and says he believes that shots were fired at the red pickup truck when the dog was killed. He also heard police were firing from the southeast side of the lake, as well as at the Bison scene. He wasn't aware of police firing from the Perch. He had heard that police had fired while they travelled in the yellow Bison along the lakeshore on the north side of the lake. He agrees he walked around the area and found casings on the ground. He says that around the Bison scene, there were a lot of bullet holes in the trees.

BM says that he walked along the lakeshore road, west of the 1000 Road and had found casings along the road. He said ERT members told him that casings fell off the vehicles as they drove away, so he didn't bother investigating the casings because he couldn't be sure where they came from.

BM says that in theory, he could check the Bison to tell whether bullets had struck it. He wouldn't be able to tell the calibre in most cases. He isn't sure if he could tell the difference between a round fired from nearby and rounds fired 1,300 metres away. ST asks if the alloy composition could determine whether a round was a police round or another.

BM says that there is no way to tell this. He agrees that he wouldn't be able to tell if a bullet strike came from police guns or other guns. ST asks about hammer strikes on the hull.

BM says that there would be a difference between hammer strikes and bullet strikes, but agrees that he only looked very quickly at the Bison. He didn't see anything to indicate a bullet strike. BM agrees that a bullet strike can be influenced by velocity, angle fired from, mass of the bullet and type of bullet. BM agrees that when he was at the crime scene, there was a lot of activity by police doing grid searches looking for evidence. ST suggests that of all the evidence BM has and the weapons he seized, only five appear to have been used. BM agrees. BM also agrees that of the rest of the guns found, none of the casings found could be linked to these guns.

BM agrees that the C-7 is an automatic version of the police M-16. BM agrees that he found a number of army and police casings around the Bison scene. He doesn't recall seeing a bag of .223 casings found in the camp area, but agrees that police would recognize their own casings and might not call BM over to identify them.

BM pulls out an AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16, to describe its workings. BM notes to the court that this weapon has been wired for safety. GW laughs, "that's good."

BM says that it would be nearly impossible to tell the calibre of weapons just by listening. He might be able to differentiate between .223 and 7.62. He agrees that if one were to hold a weapon above your head and fire this way, you could not really aim it well. ST asks if someone did this at the Bison scene, and aimed at the camp, would it be possible for a bullet to hit the camp. He says it's possible, but practically speaking, virtually impossible. ST asks if people were around the camp area unarmed, would they be in danger of being hit. BM says that it would be a dangerous practice to fire a weapon while holding it above your head.

ST asks BM if he was told to lay down suppressive fire, would he twirl around 180 degrees while firing? BM says it's difficult to say. If it was a war zone, perhaps, but in civilian practice, this would be very dangerous.

ST asks about the heat signature a weapon would leave on an infrared detector like FLIR. BM has no idea, but knows that the muzzle blast temperatures far exceed body temperatures.

GW - BM agrees he came up on Sept. 17th. He brought no scientific equipment. He flew up only to deliver the weapon. Once he got there, the decision was made to assist the RCMP Ident. section. He agrees that he normally works out of a lab in Vancouver and normally, he is not called out to crime scenes.

BM was aware that there was a lot of media at the site. He left on the day the Attorney General arrived. He assumes that the AG was not there to gather evidence. He believes that the cache under the tree was opened on the 18th, but he didn't see Montague there with media that day.

One of the first days there, he went to a garage to inspect an RCMP vehicle that had lost its mirror. It was reported to him that the vehicle had been shot at. He was handed the mirror because it looked like it had been shot. He was not aware of the circumstances of the shooting. It did not come to him as usual with paper work with a formal request, but was handed to him by Cst. Leslie.

BM agrees that Leslie said words to the effect of, check out the mirror to see if it had been shot. BM found nothing to indicate that it had been hit by a bullet. Then BM gave the mirror back to Leslie.

BM agrees that he made no formal report of this. He would have told Leslie that if he wants an official investigation, he would have to submit it to the lab, but from his experience, there was nothing to work with on this mirror.

BM is not sure if he heard on the news about natives stalking and shooting at police. He never heard a retraction on the news saying that the police had not been shot at. He knows who Montague is. BM says that he never told any other police other than Leslie of the findings of his look at the mirror. Regarding gunpowder, BM says that gases are emitted in all directions when a gun is fired. BM agrees that there are two types of examinations for gunpowder. One is a chemical analysis done by the firearms section on clothing or around the bullet hole. BM explains that if a gun is shot from close by, residue will land around the hole. The other test is done by scanning with an electron microscope. This is also done by the firearms section, but not by him. There is a two-hour cutoff for doing this test or else the residue will dissipate. He agrees that it's important to not contaminate clothing by placing them in areas where there may be other gunpowder residue.

BM recalls the day that people came out of the camp and were arrested. He agrees that it wouldn't be a good idea to take clothing from people 12 hours or two days later. For that particular test, there is no scientific reason to remove clothing 24 hours after a shooting incident.

BM agrees that he did a careful walk around the camp area when he was there. He says he did this to find evidence and to make himself familiar for times like this in court. BM agrees that he recorded his findings very carefully on the colour photograph and diagram. BM says he never found any casings in a gully.

BM recalls the firepit by the camp. GW asks if BM knows where Wilby was on Aug. 18 in the morning when he said he was shot at. BM has no idea. BM agrees that he was never asked to go to the site to determine where the shot may have come from. He agrees that had he been asked to do that, he would have gone to Wilby's position to look for lines of sight to the camp. BM agrees he was on site, but was never asked to check this out.

BM recalls seeing an RCMP-type bullet yesterday that he understood came from an arm. BM agrees that he could look at the bullet under a microscope and he could also test a gun to match it. He says it's scientifically possible to link up the RCMP gun with the bullet, but that was never asked of him.

BM agrees that the guns he seized all had serial numbers. He agrees that stolen guns' serial numbers would be available, but isn't sure if these are available on CPIC. The only trace he made was on the burnt FN because its serial numbers were burnt off. He did tell the police that he could follow up the SPF number by contacting the Singapore Police Force, but this was never asked of him.

BM agrees that he has studied international arms sales and weapons are moved all over the world. He is aware of groups moving these. He is aware of white supremacist groups and militia groups. He heard on the news that a weapons cache was discovered this year in Smithers, B.C., but he was never asked to investigate this.

BM agrees that he is not aware of how the RCMP informants operate. GW asks BM to look at the video.

There is a shot from "Defenders of the Land" of a man putting rocks in a pile. BM says that he isn't sure if this is the pile that he saw on the hill near the camp. BM says that the pile he saw was by no means a fortress.

BM agrees that the .22 he identified yesterday as a "plinker" is quite small, but says it could still be deadly. BM agrees that someone who hunts a lot may have a firing range. BM says that he would never shoot a moose with a .22. He might shoot rabbits or grouse or cans with a .22. He would use a .303 for a deer. He says he wouldn't use a .308 on a rabbit or a grouse because it would be overkill. GW suggests that the rifles found aren't unusual for a native encampment. BM agrees, except for the AK and the FN. BM does agree that a .303 in the 100 Mile House area is not a big deal.

BM says that following World War Two, there were millions of .303s available in the world. GW asks if the .303 is the terrorist weapon of choice. BM says that .303s are used by terrorist organizations, but agrees that they are also used by hunters all over the world. BM says that the weapons found at the camp are common hunting rifles.

BM agrees that regarding the casings he found, he cannot say when they were fired. GW suggests that a person out target practising could bring their casings back and throw them in a pit. BM agrees this is possible. BM says that he found casings in areas that were reported to him as areas where police were shot at. GW suggests that these could have gotten there by people target practising. BM agrees this is possible.

BM doesn't recall the police telling him that Ernie Archie was an informant. The only information he got was from the TV clip he saw yesterday in the courtroom.

DC - DC notices that BM is wearing a U.N. T-shirt in a photograph taken at the camp during the investigation. BM agrees that he is familiar with the U.N. DC: "So you agree that they exist - because there was some doubt thrown at us about this the other day." BM agrees that the U.N. does exist. He's not sure if it or The Hague is charged with investigating human rights violations.

BM doesn't recall finding rifle casings in the area of the Suburban incident. He said he looked, but so many vehicles had travelled along that road that it was hard to find anything. He says they looked to the sides of the roads when they looked for casings. He agrees that he can't tell when a casing got there or by who. DC asks if BM can be sure that this dog who was spitting out casings was not interfering with some of the casings BM found. BM understood that the dog was doing it on command at the site, but doesn't believe it happened elsewhere. However, he can't discount the possibility.

BM says that weapons are often "sporterized" at the factory. BM is aware of this being done with AK-47s too. DC asks if this would be useable for hunting deer then. BM isn't sure about the wildlife rules regarding hunting, but believes AKs are illegal for hunting with. DC asks if hunting with M-16s is legal. BM says that he is aware of people doing this, but believes this is illegal now.

BM is aware of Lee Enfields being given to the Inuit by the government and says the same may have occurred with other natives.

Regarding the use of bullets, BM agrees that the RCMP are trained to shoot to kill and are not instructed to shoot at legs. BM agrees that their training is to shoot at the chest and this would likely kill a person. BM says that this supposes that there is a target to shoot at.

The term "suppressive fire" is a military term used to describe shooting a large amount of rounds over a big area. "Aimed fire" is much more accurate fire. BM agrees that the military considers it a bonus to have a bullet injure a number of people because it uses up more of the enemy's resources.

BM says that the casings he could ignore were the police calibres like the .223 and 9mm. DC asks if he was aware that ERT had .308 sniper rifles. BM didn't know that ERT were using .308s at Gustafsen Lake. BM says that the .308 and the 7.62 are basically the same.

BM confirms that he was transporting .50 calibre ammo, a machine gun, and a mount. DC suggests that he was being sent up there to instruct the RCMP on the machine gun's use. He wasn't told he would do this, but agrees he believed he would do this. BM says that he understood there was some urgency to get the weapon up there, so he flew up with the weapon. BM agrees that he was a little apprehensive about the role of instructing on the use of the weapon because he was a scientist.

BM agrees that the Browning has the range to fire from the south side of Gustafsen Lake and be deadly. DC suggests that there are a number of weapons that can be used to "keep heads down." BM says that he is only repeating what he was told. BM says that the term "keeping heads down" was the impression he got. DC says that if a person was killed, then this would be a bonus. J asks DC not to ask this.

BM agrees that the mount that came with the machine gun was a spigot mount which is a vehicle mount, but doesn't know if this would fit on the Bison. DC suggests that if it was mounted on the Bison, the RCMP could drive anywhere and fire. BM says that the lethal range is well over a mile.

L/ MA - BM says that the Browning is back in the lab at this time. The ammo was brought back to the lab too. BM confirms that Farrell was in charge of E Division. BM was called at home on the 17th at 9:30 a.m. He doesn't recall who called him. The first thing BM did was call Earl Hall and told him of the request. There was a series of calls to ensure that E Division approved. Ron Cameron or Dennis Thrift would have made these calls. Earl Hall would have too perhaps. Earl Hall finally gave him the approval. BM says the operational room he went to in E Division was small, with two or three people in it - an administration-type room. He never went back to that room.

BM confirms that this mount was to be used on a tank or an APC. The other kinds of guns they had in the lab were designed to be used on aircraft, so they weren't appropriate. The ammo is a half inch thick and about four or five inches long. He flew into 108 Mile House and drove into 100 Mile House. He placed the gun into the 100 Mile House armoury. He flew in an RCMP aircraft. There was only he, the pilot and an unknown RCMP officer in the rear. He was met by two cars and the gun was put in the trunk. They went to an operational room and he asked around to find out who was in charge and to find out what to do with the gun now that it wasn't needed.

MA shows BM a Will Say regarding BM's testimony. MA says he was quite surprised to hear about the gun, as he had asked the Crown about such guns.

BM says he may have mentioned the gun to the Crown in passing, but didn't think he would be dealing with this here, as he expected only to give forensics information. BM says that he also brought along diagrams of trees with holes in them. MA looks at these diagrams and notes that they are quite detailed. BM says that he was trying to determine what direction the bullets were going based on the holes in the trees.

MA shows BM photographs that MA had taken at Gustafsen Lake, but BM says that they are not detailed enough to make any comments about whether the trees have bullet holes in them. MA asks if the larger hole is consistent with a hole a .50 calibre would leave, but BM says he can't tell because he doesn't know the scale of the picture.

BM goes over his diagrams and describes his notation that says "308 high" - it refers to a hole he found that was consistent with bullets in the 30 calibre range. He reiterates that he didn't know that police were using .308 weapons from across the lake. BM has a diagram which indicates the different directions bullets had hit the trees from. MA asks that the diagram be passed around to other counsel as it might be made an exhibit.

MA asks BM about Ex. 233 that BM created. MA asks what the purpose was in making this. BM says that he wanted to make this a more visual demonstration, so as not to put people to sleep. MA stresses that BM's objective was to match found casings to found weapons. It was not designed to link casings to people.

MA says that he has a letter from the Crown regarding the amount of rounds issued. Military was issued and used 2,800 .223 rounds. They were also issued 5,290 .223 tracer rounds and they returned 2,908 of these. MA says that he doesn't see any of this in BM's diagram. "Where are all the tracings of these casings to weapons." BM says that he was only interested in unknown weapons. MA suggests that his real purpose was to link casings to unknown weapons. BM agrees this is more accurate.

BM agrees that the Identification (Ident.) team showed him the casings which he eventually analyzed. BM says that he can't indicate the age of the casings. MA asks about green casings. BM says that some of these casings have a natural green colour. He agrees that brass will rust green. He goes over the diagram to note which are brass and which are steel. BM says that a green casing may indicate that it is old, but that doesn't mean they weren't usable bullets. He remembers the couple of .222 casings being green in colour. BM isn't sure if he recorded this or not. He says he makes scientific notes to match cartridge casings to weapons, not to make scientific notes of whether these were fired during the time period of the standoff. MA challenges BM's opinion that the casings he analyzed were not very old, but BM holds his position.

BM agrees that he is employed by the RCMP and he takes orders from them. MA suggests that if an RCMP superior told him to fire the Browning machine gun, he would fire it. BM says that he is not obliged to carry out such an order. He doesn't know if there is anyone trained in the RCMP to fire that weapon.

Referring to the diagram of bullet directions, BM says that this was his attempt to figure out what happened, but halfway through he gave up because there were just too many holes. BM says that a .308 hole could have been made by the FN-L1A1 such as those in his diagram. MA asks if BM could have finished his diagram of bullet directions had he been given time and resources. BM agrees he could have, but was never asked to do so.

BM agrees that he didn't place the found .223 casings in Ex. 233 because they were from a known weapon. When BM found the casings along the road, he concluded that these had fallen off the APCs. He reiterates that when he looked at the APC, he saw about six .223 casings jammed into nooks and crannies, like behind the muffler and hatches.

BM says that he never saw Red Bison that was investigated by Prendergast in Chilliwack. MA shows him a document which says that Prendergast notes that BM was with him, but BM says that this was regarding an investigation of a video.

BM describes muzzle flash as burning residue that comes out of the barrel when the gun is fired. He says that this is dependent on the type of ammo used. In the dark, just about any weapon would produce muzzle flash. Of the weapons seized, he would have to test them all in a dark room for muzzle flash. He says that there would be very little smoke emitted, depending on the gunpowder used. He says that there would be more smoke produced if more rounds are fired, but he cannot say just how much would be visible. He says that smoke is the residue that remains following combustion.

MA asks that the M-16 be made an exhibit and BM pulls one out of a case. BM would like to ensure that this lab M-16 be returned to the lab afterwards. BM says that the smoke produced by an M-16 can be described as a brief puff of smoke that dissipates in a minute. The HK MP5's smoke dissipates even quicker.

BM pulls out the HK MP5. He says that this was originally designed to fire full auto, but has been modified to fire semi-auto for the RCMP.

MA would like these weapons made exhibits, as well as the .50 calibre machine gun and one round of ammo. J will deal with this later.

SF - BM says that during Aug. '95, he was working for the RCMP. BM says that he wouldn't describe it as being contracted by the RCMP.

SF asks if he believes the Canadian government has jurisdiction to regulate what weapons can be used by people. He says that this is a legal question and he can't answer it. She asks if he knows if B.C. was legally obtained. He again doesn't know the legal question. "I have no idea who owns the land."

SF asks if he knows that the RCMP and supporters put a lot of hope for a peaceful resolution when the medicine man came to the lake on the same day that BM arrived with a .50 calibre machine gun. BM doesn't know what the motivations were for ordering the weapon. BM says that the mount was designed to fit on pre-Korea and WWII vehicles.

He agrees that he wore a U.N. T-shirt up at Gustafsen Lake. He was not aware that there was a U.N. observer there. This observer was there as a member of the U.N. organization CONIC (Coordinating Commission of Indigenous Organizations and Nations of the Continent), who made the following charge: "We charge the Canadian government and all its offices with violating the rights of the Ts'peten Sundance Defenders as provided for in the draft `Universal Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.'" BM was not aware of this.

He has no idea what the gun was going to be mounted on to fire it. He was not aware of any other .50 calibre guns up there before he showed up. He never saw any.

BM never came across any land mines in his search of the grounds. He was not aware of any land mines being used at Gustafsen Lake.

J says a jury member has asked for the difference between a rifle and a machine gun. BM says that a "rifle" is a long rifle designed to be fired at the shoulder and is usually single shot or semi-auto. A machine gun can look like a rifle, but the way it fires is what makes it a machine gun. It fires a continuous number of shots for as long as you pull the trigger. The FN can be built in two ways: semi and full auto, and the only difference is a switch.

DC asks if the AK here is a rifle then. BM agrees. He says that the C-7s in the APCs were machine guns, while the ones the police used were rifles. They look identical. BM confirms that the FN found was a rifle.

LB says that this is it for witnesses for today. J dismisses witness and jury for the day and stands down for a minute to allow LB to figure out how to sort out making the M-16 an exhibit.

We're back.

LB - says there is no problem getting the M-16 in as evidence, but the MP5 is an ERT operational weapon and suggests that a life size photocopy would be made available to the jury.

HR - asks what the problem is here. The jury is entitled to look at this weapon. "If there isn't a spare weapon in the RCMP, I'd eat the thing, piece by piece." HR says that he wants the weapon here and it is necessary.

J agrees that both weapons should be marked an exhibit and we just have to figure out how to get them here.

MA - says that he wants the .50 calibre weapon be brought in, as well as one round of ammo.

LB - says that this weapon was never used and doesn't see the relevance.

HR - says that this goes to the attitude of the police regarding excessive force. On the same day they are negotiating peace, they were preparing for war. It goes to the state of mind of the police. HR says that this witness goes far beyond the range expected of a civilian working for the RCMP.

J - says that he had some reservations about making the .50 calibre an exhibit, but after hearing HR's submission, he wants to ensure that the jury has access to all the weapons we are talking about here. He rules that it will be made an exhibit.

ST - regarding Will Thomas' testimony, he wants the Shuswap Declaration made available to the jury.

MA - asks that Glen not be docked because of being late this morning since he has had trouble with the bus. J rules in Glen's favour.

GW - says that he wants to tell Jensen that he won't be required this week and wants to tell him when to come. J says that the jury member will know on Monday when he needs a day off.

HR - is making another bail request for Wolverine. He will only deal with the attempted murder charge. All the evidence regarding attempted murder has gone in through the latest testimonies of Toogood and Russell. HR notes that attempted murder is to have the intent to kill someone. The day in issue is Sept. 11th. It comes down to the allegation that Wolverine fired at the APC.

Only one person claims to have identified the man as Wolverine and this witness had only a limited view. HR notes that this same witness mistook a picture of someone else for HR.

He says that he didn't do this to be funny, but to show how difficult it is to identify someone.

During three hours of questioning of Wolverine, there was no conclusive evidence. HR says that if there is only a weak case against a person, then there is poor reason to keep someone in jail. Wolverine has been in jail for over a year now and this trial will go on to February. There is no more evidence to come in against him.

HR says that this trial has a large number of political overtones shadowing it and before the trial, it was fought in the newspapers, which his client didn't have access to. Now the trial has been going on for a long time and the jury has heard a lot. HR says that in the case of Wolverine, his charges are non-specific. He says that people don't have to be specified, but who is in danger here? People inside an armoured personnel carrier?

HR says that the only thing Wolverine said was, "well, what would you do if an APC was barrelling down on you at 120 miles per hour?" The worst thing this can indicate is that he wheeled around to fire at a charging vehicle. What does the Crown allege? That Wolverine will go back to Gustafsen Lake and shoot at people?

HR says that Wolverine has stood for the jury and for the J. He has spoken to the jury about the law, but he has never said that he would go out and do harm to anyone. There is no indication of this. HR says that Wolverine has been singled out as the leader and has also been singled out for special treatment. HR says that Wolverine is a safe bet to let out and is no threat to anyone.

HR reiterates that the Crown has a weak case, weak identification. If it is decided that there is evidence that Wolverine is firing, then there is the whole question of the hyper situation. What was the APC doing there in the first place?

HR notes that the media has used his Indian name, Wolverine, because it sounds more vicious than his Anglo Saxonized name, Jones Ignace.

HR says that this case is very public like it or not, but we have to look at it objectively. He says that he has had a number of clients charged with first degree murder who got bail. HR says that Dohm made his decision in haste at the height of the media hype. He says this with deference, but he feels he has to say this.

HR also notes that Wolverine is over 65 and when you're this old, a year in jail means more to you than when you are 20. "You'll know this when you get older, your honour." J: "I'll know about that sooner than you think at the rate this is going." Laughter.

HR says that there is no risk of Wolverine not showing up if released. He wouldn't miss this for all the world. And he is not a threat.

HR says that just because of the views he has, doesn't mean he should be treated differently.

HR notes that in his experience, he has never heard of the conquerors giving back to the conquered, but this is... Wolverine interrupts, "We are not a conquered people."

HR concludes by saying that Wolverine should be let go for all the above reasons.

LB - reminds J that this is a bail review in which the only mandate is to review the earlier decision. He says that the evidence is no less than the Crown had expected and that it is sufficient. LB says that there is no question that Wolverine was in the camp before the standoff. He says that Wolverine was the leader no matter what he calls himself. There was even a sign at the camp that said "Camp Wolverine". There was also video of the helicopter being shot at followed by a shot of Wolverine carrying an AK-47.

Wolverine was clearly the spokesman for the camp in the radio negotiations and made many statements, including "Canada has to pay". LB continues that there is evidence from two people that Wolverine was firing at an APC. The first was the crew commander and the second was Wolverine, who basically admitted to shooting at it.

LB says that when Dohm made his decision, it wasn't hasty and Dohm continues to hold these opinions.

LB concludes that bail should not be granted.

HR notes that when Dohm heard HR's submissions at Wolverine's last bail hearing, Dohm didn't comment on any of the issues HR raised. HR says that Wolverine may have said some things that were vulgar and not diplomatic. But there is nothing he says that is threatening. When Wolverine says that Canada has to pay, he means it. There has to be payment. HR says that one thing Wolverine has going for him is that he's consistent. HR says that the courts have never persecuted people because of their viewpoints - only when people threatened other people's safety.

There is no evidence that Wolverine ever threatened anyone. What he says may be provocative, but that's quite different from threatening someone. There may be difficulties here, but the only question here is, "Does this person pose a threat to anyone?" HR says that LB says that this evidence remains what the Crown expected. HR notes that all the counts relating to attempted murder arise on the same day, which come out to means it's a fishing expedition. "If we can't get him on this one, then we'll get him on this one." HR says that there is no officer who can say that this man fired at him. They were all hunkered down inside an APC.

HR says that bail is required.

J will review submissions and past decisions.

   * Monday, November 11 - no court      * Day 75: Thursday, November 14
   * Day 73: Tuesday, November 12        * Day 76: Friday, November 15
   * Day 74: Wednesday, November 13