Trial, Week 3: Summary - July 25


WEEK 3: JULY 22 - 26, 1996

   * Day 10: Monday, July 22                * Day 13: Thursday, July 25
   * Day 11: Tuesday, July 23               * Day 14: Friday, July 26 
   * Day 12: Wednesday, July 24


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)

(no mainstream media present - CKWX all news radio present in the afternoon after lunch)

Cst. Charlie Andrew back on witness stand. Jury in.

DC - Re conversations on June 17/95 held with Snow. His notes show that he suggested that the land could be bought from the James Cattle Co. He thinks James and Snow had sat down to discuss it, but nothing ever came out of it. They had discussed 10 acres or so to not interfere with cattle operations. Andrew had spoken to Percy, and Percy reassured him that there would be no further problems for cattle to be moved. Andrew was assured that there would be no more problems with the cattle. Doesn't remember discussing this with Sarich, but he did put it in his continuation report. Snow still had to put idea in front of her Council and the James family. Snow thought buying it was a good idea.

On page 56 of report, Andrew was trying to maintain communications with the camp. Confirms that in the native context, things are accomplished by extensive talking. "I always believed there was a solution that both parties could live with and I still believe that's possible."

On June 22/95, page 56, Andrew discussed with Cst. Findley the arrival of Peter Epp from the Reform Party wanting to know what the RCMP were going to do. Says Epp was one of the people applying pressure on the RCMP and James. So was Jack Weisgerber. "It took a lot of energy to diffuse that kind of energy." Epp is friends with Weisgerber and Lyle James - is believed to be pushing James' buttons in the background. He admits that there were concerns in the camp about an RCMP invasion. He tried to relieve any worries. He told the camp that if the RCMP were going to do anything, then he would come and inform the camp. He spoke to Doc on July 22/95 and notes a concern that the news the camp was getting (about the RCMP coming in) made everyone nervous. Says the RCMP weren't aware of that report. Mentions news came out of Quesnel. Andrew was confident that by the end of their meeting, the camp would call before "over reacting to news items." (Says the media were "not truthfully representing anyone" regarding the July 21st "news" of an RCMP invasion).

Page 202 of report re: planned meeting on neutral grounds. Percy had 3 reasons for this: tires slashed, family threatened, not happy with way he was treated at Dog Creek. Wanted it on the Sundance grounds because of safety concerns. Andrew admits that the RCMP would have provided security. Percy wanted all chiefs, Bruce Mack, Lyle James, hereditary people, everyone bring food, the RCMP would provide security, no matter how long it took, they would sit down until everyone had a chance to talk, he wanted it to be a constructive meeting where no one would get mad. ("They were reasonable requests", Andrew stated).

DC suggests there was resistance by James' family lawyer Messner, indicating that the size of the meeting must be controlled. Andrew hadn't heard that, but as far as he was concerned, the meeting was going to occur in late August. Andrew told Cst. Findley to watch what he says if he was at that meeting in front of the group - suggestion came from Sarich (Aug. 2nd notes). Andrew says that this suggestion was made after Findley had been videotaped at the camp. Admits that this was a gag order on Findley to prevent him from speaking about the results of his research into the history of the land.

Page 23, dates for meeting set as August 21st, alternative dates of Aug 18-20. DC suggests Andrew's superiors aware of this meeting with possible resolution when ERT came sneaking in on August 18th. "Someone did. I know I didn't." Admits it was 3 days before the meeting when the armed force was sent in. Antoine Archie had told Andrew on Aug. 17th that there were only a few people in the camp so Andrew wanted to go on the 18th to check this, but he never got there.

While he may not have known most of the area, he was the only person selected by the sundancers as a liaison to be allowed on the grounds. They may not have respected the uniform, but they recognized him as a liaison for the RCMP. Admits it was a grave concern when they were so close to resolving it.

MA - confirms that Epp was well known to be a Reform Party person in Williams Lake. Epp a good friend with James. Andrew saw the two together at a morning meeting in Aug. '95. Findley told him that Epp was good friends with Weisgerber. Thinks there was pressure on James the way he spoke and the fact that Sarich had mentioned pressure and concerns from the Cattlemen's Association and from Tourism Industry.... some mention of Sundance people that have left with Percy's group.

Aug. 27/93 letter from Percy mentions complaints by Percy and Ernie Archie that the RCMP were not taking the security of the sundance seriously regarding campers. Andrew recalls a July 23/93 incident where a camper went to the media. (That's why Percy sent out letter to RCMP). MA asks about original notes - Andrew says they're at 100 Mile House file. Andrew didn't do anything about that complaint and doesn't know if anyone else did at the camp.

MA tries to make August 27/93 letter admissible as an exhibit, but LB objects that he can't do that. Judge asks him to look at the Evidence Act and give him submissions later. Cpl. Hicks told Andrew about Aug. 18/95 incident so he waited for Cst. Wood. They made it 5 km from 100 Mile House when he was ordered back to Detachment by Hicks on radio "direct order". Andrew aware of Percy complaining of camouflaged men with black faces carry assault rifles. Not aware of anyone going to answer Percy's complaint. He didn't because "I was officially off the case." No cop ever came to him for input or suggestions during the standoff after he was pulled on Aug. 18th.

Andrew says he lost most of his language when stationed up north. Would use Shuswap the best he could.

SF - Introduces herself and apologizes for having to meet in these circumstances. Andrew says he grew up in Southern Shuswap and learned traditional ways from his grandparents. SF asks how he lost his language. Was it at a residential school? "I was fortunate - I was only in residential school for one year", he replied. Says he was taught to respect the land, the food that comes from the land, the people, and to give thanks for these things.

Andrew said as a Shuswap he had a duty to the land to protect it "to the best of his ability " and that there were traditional Chiefs before his time in Chase, B.C. The old system was more respected by the natives than Canadian system. In old system, they sought guidance from the Creator. Believes in 1951, the Indian Act undermined that system. Admits that the camp told him many times that the system and that the people in the camp referred to Indian Act sellouts as collaborators with the system that was attempting to destroy the native people and way of life. He heard them say that the Band Council works for the federal government and not the people. Told that councillors and chiefs were the puppets on the strings.

The Judge then interrupted to asked the relevance of question regarding the limited power of the Band Councils. SF (cont) The sundancers said the Band was really just an administrative arm at a local level of the federal government created to carry out federal directives. Re: notes on potential meeting in August/95 - thought the Band would be supportive of Sundancers, but they didn't say so specifically. Didn't realize at the time that the suggestion to buy land undermined the position of the camp's claims. After June 17, Snow told him (Charlie Andrew) that there were land claims by the Canoe Creek Band.

Charlie Andrew had no knowledge of liaison committee that was assembled during the standoff nor was he invited to join it.

Andrew said that the RCMP would mediate between any groups involved. Andrew felt that him or Cst. Wood were never consulted on how to resolve the situation. Andrew remembers Doc (Splitting the Sky) telling him to investigate a missing native said to be a mistress of Lyle James who had been missing 14 years.

He says the information was relayed to Cst. Tassell, but doesn't know if any investigation followed. Cst. Wood believed the camp's intention was to educate him on visits. Judge won't let Andrew answer if he understood that the only danger the people of the camp posed was to espouse the federal government's attempts to systematically extinguish aboriginal rights.As Cst. Andrew left, he shook hands with Flo Sampson (Wolverine's wife), who thanked him for his testimony. "See, Indian people don't lie," Flo said.

Judge aware that one of the jury members is sick and thanks him for soldiering on.

LB - Next witness (#13): Cst. George Findley - 17 years on force (joined in 1979) - stationed at Williams Lake as First Nations Community Policing member. His area doesn't include Dog Creek - in Clinton jurisdiction. Went to Dog Creek to see Agnes Snow and accompany her to Gustafsen Lake. He called Williams Lake for permission. Gustafsen Lake is not in his area of operations. Spoke to Sgt. Smith in Williams Lake, his commander.

In mid June `95 he went with Snow in marked vehicle. She took her own car and had two others with her: David Archie and an elder woman - name unknown. Findley was working alone that day. Snow had some concerns about safety. She told him she wanted to have a meeting with the encampment. They drove to intersection and waited there with Csts. Wood and Andrew while Snow and elders went into camp at 15:40 Snow's common-law husband, Jeff Mazeko waited with cops. At 18:35, Snow and company came back out to intersection. Findley drove Archie back to Dog Creek and then went home. On 17 June, '95 at 14:00, he attended meeting at entrance to the Sundance grounds. The meeting was just inside fence area, in front of the cabin. There were also the Sundancers themselves there too. He later saw John "Doc" Hill, Glen Denault, Jonesy, and blond lady. Main speaker was John Hill (Splitting the Sky) who he understood was from Oka. Doc didn't identify himself at that time. Says he was the main speaker but everyone else had a chance to speak. Sundancers didn't recognize the Band Council nor the deed to the property. Meeting lasted an hour or so. No agreement was reached, but they did agree to have another meeting. His role was to ensure peace was held.

On June 18th, Mr Epp came to detachment and wondered when the RCMP were going to move the Sundancers and said that James was in the hospital because of stress. At 13:05, Findley went to see Lyle James at Slumber Lodge but he wasn't in.

On June 30, Findley received a request from Staff Sgt. Sarich through Smith that his assistance was requested. Sarich confirmed this for time period while ceremonies were going on. Findley had July 5-7 ' 95 off, but worked all the other days. Understood his role was as a peacekeeper to make sure nothing happened. He's not sure if he was the only constable assigned to peacekeeping duties.

LB - July 3rd, 10:00 was first time there on his own. Spoke to Percy. Heard him speak at June 17th meeting, but had never met him. Thinks he may have also spoken to Hill (Splitting the Sky). Findley wanted to build up trust to be a go-between the police and camp. Also to collect intelligence if he could. On July 3rd, tried to remember licence plates, noted orange bags of fertilizer and red gas cans. Was there for an hour, then went home.

July 4th, 9:45, doesn't believe ceremonies were going on that day. Saw approximately 50 people. Saw Percy and Doc. He was escorted north of arbour site with Percy and two males. They pointed out what they believed was a grave site. Findley saw what could be a grave site because of the indentations of the ground. It was marked off with stakes. He didn't see any grave markers. After return to camp, it began hailing so he left area.

On July 8, 1215 hrs, went to lake and spoke to campers - took plate numbers. Went to camp and spoke to person at gate. Also spoke to campers from Washington who had gone to the lake for 20 years. Campers asked about problems and Findley gave them a short history.

July 9th he went to camp at 9:45, spoke to gate keeper for 1.25 hours. 11:00 went to same campsites as other day. July 10th went to Dog Creek and spoke to David Archie. Archie had earlier told him he knew a lot of history. Findley wanted to talk to him because he wanted to learn the history of the area since he was new there. Wanted to pass on information to RCMP and to Sundancers to see how much they knew about area. Left Dog Creek at 11:00 and went to Gustafsen Lake. July 10th, at camp, he had lengthy conversation with Hill (Splitting the Sky). Hill told him they had Bruce Clark as their lawyer. Any aggression would be met with aggression. If they were left alone, they would be peaceful.

Ceremonies ended but there would be three days of spirit dancing.

July 11th, 14:30 spoke to Hill. Hill asked what the RCMP would do next. Findley said they would do nothing unless something else happened. They were just there as peacekeepers. July 12th, at 9:30, spoke again to David Archie so he could write down history on continuation reports. 13:30 he went to lake, and saw approximately 10-20 natives that were quiet and peaceful. There for an hour. Believes Sundance was over at this point. Knew this would be his last day before holidays or court. Aug. 26th, he went with Williams Lake members to assist on a roadblock on the 1100 road. He was to check everyone at checkpoint and their vehicles too. They were turning vehicles back. 16:30 shift over. He made diagrams of the encampment in his notes. LB hands out copies of these diagrams - Exhibit #135. ID's 35 km marker, campsites, cabin, arbour, gravesite. (7 people sleeping now - Teddy, Stuart, OJ, Pancho, Shadow and Sheila - Flo slouching, almost asleep). Suniva: "Order in the court, all awake."

LB shows Findley "Defenders of the Land" and segment with Findley. Actually starts at the beginning of video first where Percy speaks of coming so far, but now getting harassed from everyone. Findley saw "Harvey" on video at the sundance camp more than once. That's it for video. End of questions by LB.

HR - Findley grew up in B.C. Intention of community policing was to reassure natives. Admits there was no hostility from the camp, but there was from the non-natives. Admits this was the first time he ever heard of an MP coming to apply pressure to evict someone. Heard through Cst. Andrew that Peter Epp was an associate of Jack Weisgerber. Describes Epp as "slightly agitating". Epp asked, "When are you going to clean these natives out of Mr. James ranch?" Findley not happy about that approach. ("It made me a little bit disgusted"). No one else had done the same.

Re: his research with David Archie - remembered his grandfather saying Shuswap people lived with the Cree people at one point. This kind of information would also help him professionally as a police officer. First time at camp, "the only cold stares I got were from the white people in the camp." Other than that, no problem. In whole time there were no hostilities towards him. After first time with cold stares, no problems with whites either.

At first he didn't report to Sarich.

One time Sarich asked him for a report in his office, but Sarich got a call and that was the end of it. Never tried to give him information after because he knew that there were more important people above to give the info to. ("Never did have a meaningful conversation with Staff Sgt. Sarich"). Admits his approach was more like Csts. Andrew and Wood in that they wanted to resolve this peacefully. His role was to keep the peace. He wasn't worried about the people in the camp, he was worried about the outside influences that wanted to disturb things. Knew to tread softly, "especially when you're by yourself."

Findley apologizes to judge that his English isn't very good re: using the word intelligence instead of information. Admits he was gathering information for his job too. White officers weren't as informed of the situation and that's why they sent the natives in. Says his sketch of the area was initiated by himself and went to Cst. Tassell.

He knew when he went first to the area that this was a special issue that required care in its handling. This is what he would have told Sarich if he cared to listen. Reporting to his own Sgt. Smith in Williams Lake and Staff Sgt. Porter at Kamloops SubDivision. He gave them run down of his concerns. He tried to impress upon them the necessity of care. Say Sarich was busy "I guess." Probably busy with higher levels of senior officers, not with the grunts. Sarich would have gotten written reports though. Page 4 of his continuation report says James now demanding natives get off property - "believes police chicken to remove natives". (Jury foreman's eyes open wide with disbelief and amusement as this was read out loud.)

He got this from Hicks. Csts. Wood, Andrew and Findley shared info and believed there was a real potential for problems here. Never saw any weapons in the camp. Re: grave sites - the difference of the coffins between white and Indian sites is that white coffins wouldn't disintegrate and let the earth fall while native people are wrapped in blankets and once they decomposed, the earth would fall creating depressions.

Did he believe that they (Sarich, RCMP) didn't really want to hear more from you on peaceful discussions? "Yes." His last day was at the road block. What he had feared was coming to pass. On Aug. 26/95, Staff Sgt. Porter (SubDivision NCO) told him not to return. Wasn't surprised to hear that because it has happened before. Was given reason that if something bad was to happen at Gustafsen Lake, RCMP didn't want native cops to have trouble policing the reserves.

After standoff he wrote that if a white religious cult came in to take over the rodeo grounds, would they send home the non-native cops. Has been challenged in past and called an "Apple". "What the real rationale was, I don't know." (for being pulled off duty at Gustafsen Lake.) There was a new approach by the management of the RCMP. If there would have been a breach, he would have arrested the natives, as he had in the past. Admits that if he was hit by a bullet, he would have hung it up on the mantle - after handing it in for ballistic tests.

Hoping that if they would have waited until winter, there wouldn't have been anyone around. He would love to live out there in the winter - with his fishing rod. He knew something was brewing when he was asked to leave and not come back. This transfer was different from other ones because "it was a little bit more personal I suppose." He understood their rationale because he had to return to duties covering 5 reserves. But he is a police officer bottom line. This reflected a conscious change of approach. Admits that a gun is used for defense - to protect his own life or others. He admits that he couldn't see going in to assault someone unless there was some sort of legal document.

DC - asks judge about Findley's report that he wrote following standoff. Findley explains that he advised his superior on a rough piece of paper. Judge asks DC to inquire about it on the next break.

ST - Discussed on 16 June '95 with Porter and Smith that this was #1 priority. Admits it wasn't a police criminal investigation, but rather a peacekeeping community action. Agnes Snow was asking Findley to come with her because shots were heard the previous day and wanted to contact those at the camp to set up a meeting. Learned that lake was man made, been used for fishing and water, that many people grew up in area of lake, that there were questions of the land ownership. Also aware that camp was having trouble with white tourists, and that James thought cops were "chicken". Realized there was more to this than just a piece of land so went to investigate. Findley met elder David Archie. Reported situation to superiors. Also went to camp to discuss what he learned. This new information had impact on him. He viewed footage first time when it aired on CBC. Remembers Hill, female natives and children at July 12 visit.


(Gustafsen Lake Area): History - Before colonial times - hunting, fishing, berry picking. Trade route to Canim Lake, North Thompson area.

1832 - BlackDome Intertribal Agreement area - 2,000 square miles of territory. Blackdome Mountain to east side of Green Lake.

1864 - Douglas Reserve. Negotiated between Governor Douglas of colony of B.C. and Canoe Creek and Dog Creek Indian Bands - 300,000 acres as far southeast as Neilson Lake. (Approx. 3 km. east of Gustafsen Lake.) Gustafsen Lake built by Louie Mtinmeshen or Louie "Tin Musket" as known by whites. Originally was flat meadow but damned to help cultivate land and as fish source. Also to provide year round water supply to Dog Creek. Many natives lived year round in area. Some log cabins remain in area today.

1865 - Joseph Trutch - Lands and Works Commissioner for B.C. Never attempted to understand natives; never learned the language; believed natives were sub/human; never learned their culture; believed they were savages; declared natives non-citizens; passed ordinance that natives could not buy, sell, or pre-empt land; down sized reserves, along with his surveyor Peter O'Reilly, from 300,000 acres to 14,000 acres or 5% of the Douglas Treaty. 1870 - March 30th - Excluded natives from partnership in Confederation - Joseph Trutch. The 14,000 acres reserved for natives is mostly non-arable land, i.e. rock cliffs, canyons, and steep hills. (NOTE: Those are the reserves that exist now - Dog Creek, Canoe Creek, etc.) Trutch believed natives would be extinct due to the smallpox epidemic of 1862 which in fact did wipe out 15 Shuswap Bands from Soda Creek to Enberry.

1868 - Whites move into area and start ranching after failing in gold rush. These whites lived with and married local native women - these whites would then purchase reserve lands from the government. Also under Trutch the natives were given 10 acres per family. However, a white could homestead 160 acres and his brother could homestead another 160 acres, etc. etc. (NOTE: Dog Creek was one of the main routes for prospectors heading for Quesnel.)

First white 'owner' of land in question - Esidore Gaspard Versepeuche, 1860-1885. Married native woman - Motla in 1871. Known as Gaspard Ranch. The ranch was then sold several times. Frank Armes sold ranch to Lyle James, but told the natives he had seen surveyor markers at Gustafsen Lake marked Indian Reserve.

1920-1940's -natives were not allowed to sell or buy agricultural goods off reserve; had approx. 500 head of cattle but had to down size because of no land. Natives were urged to sell reserve land if they were in dire straits by the government agents of the day. Throw in alcohol and residential schools and it ain't hard to understand the loss of land and family breakdown of the native people.

Conclusion: Sundancers are not being supported by local natives or Bands. However, they are firm in their belief that they are occupying native land which was basically stolen from the natives. No indication they will be leaving soon. Recommendation: Do NOT take police action to remove as public support from local native Bands would or could shift in a hurry. The police could then be made to look bad."


Any action by the police on behalf of James may have pulled the support from the reserves. Still he was there as a policeman. He checked the tourists to see if there were any problems and there were none. Agnes Snow was concerned about safety because a shot had been heard near foresters. Clear that the word was that the problems were attributed to the Sundancers. Yet personal observation showed no complaints at all.

AB/ ST - 17 July '95 circle meeting: understood that Hill had been a spokesman at Oka and had been asked to speak for the Sundancers. Agrees they viewed Band with suspicion. Campers didn't recognize the claim by James that he owned the land. Notes that one of the recommendations by the chiefs was to buy the 10 acres in question. Understood that depressions around grave area were not caused by cattle. Noted a hole that was 3'x 2' and a foot deep. Told that some of Sundancers would place their herbs in there to gain strength. At that time, when there was no trouble or agitation, this explanation seemed adequate. July 10, he spoke to Hill and learned that Dr. Clark was their lawyer - Percy not there at time. Felt there was pressure on RCMP from Cattlemen's Association and tourist groups though Findley never heard this directly. He kept telling Hill that the RCMP didn't want to get involved. Concluded that "something was going to happen. The demands were too high by the Sundancers. Knew the Governor General and the Queen wouldn't come out. Aware that James putting much pressure on having them removed."

GW - Findley knew when he joined the police that he would be stationed in native areas. Before the program, there was an inherent distrust of the police by the natives. Wanted to get across to natives that RCMP were a good thing. There was an old style of policing that cops would live with natives, suffer with them, and sometimes even side with them.

A new type of police is one like the Americans with assault rifles, cops with bullet proof glass, etc. "I think that was a result of American TV." Findley wanted to make it clear that not all police were like that. In his attempts to gain trust, he knew importance of being open and truthful. Admits that native ways of doing things different from whites. He has heard Chiefs telling him of broken promises. One way of dealing with natives is to tell them exactly what was going on. Learning history of Gustafsen Lake was a way of helping communications. One procedure to let people know what you're doing. That's the reason he shared report with camp. Trust and honesty paramount. Your word is your bond. Showing history was to establish trust. Everytime he went into camp, he took his sidearm off as a sign of respect. Didn't know in 50's and 60's that some RCMP didn't carry a gun in small communities - just a hunting arm. Findley didn't know that, but believes it - "I don't even carry a baton or spray." He liked to believe that the people in the camp shared these views but he was asked to remove his weapon.

GW suggests that Findley wasn't scared drinking coffee "from the best coffee maker around, Toby." Findley: "Plus I knew I couldn't be fired there." GW suggests that Findley was more concerned about some of his superiors than of the people sitting here in court - "Yea, probably." Knew that in the RCMP, you could be disciplined in quiet ways. GW goes through hierarchy of RCMP and suggests that "the RCMP operate on a military rank system". Findley agrees. Agrees that Sarich had a reputation for strictness and that he didn't understand the natives. Had heard before he met Sarich that he had a problem with this subordinates. He heard Sarich hadn't moved into the 100 Mile House community despite being transferred there. Knows many police that when transferred, become part of the community. Admits that he was hurt personally when his concerns weren't listened to by Sarich. It appeared Sarich's call was more important than him. The meeting didn't really go as hoped.

No native officers above rank of Constable in Cariboo area - no Sgts., Staff Sgts., Commissioners in area. Even the head of native policing is white (thought very native minded - good guy).

It would have been very difficult to reverse the decision made for him not to return to Gustafsen Lake. Staff Sgt. Porter told him to return to Williams Lake. Findley felt he had accomplished his objective - he had gained the trust of the people in the camp. He didn't see those at camp as terrorists. Saw them as frustrated First Nation people trying to make a point. Notes that the people at the campfire shook his hands and knew that he could always return. Noted in his "continuation report" that as he was leaving, he saw four eagles circling over the arbour. Saw that as a good omen. He was surprised by the order to not return by Staff Sgt. Porter. GW asks if the real problem was that he had gone and researched the history which was favourable to the Sundancers. Said it was possible higher ups could have read his report and yanked him. "We as native officers will never establish any credibility if we're always yanked off duty like that," Findley testified. He saw himself on CBC-TV and realized he had been video taped on July 12/95. "I don't apologize for anything I said."

Admits that the RCMP "or the people in Ottawa" wouldn't be very happy about this because they're very critical of any publicity that doesn't go the way they want it to go. Knows there is a unit that deals with publicity. Knows that what Sgt. Peter Montague says is approved by the management of the RCMP. Watched Montague on TV. Didn't know he was moving journalists around on RCMP aircraft. Knows that the RCMP get their point of view out to the media through Montague. Realizes that Montague only reads what management writes and places in front of him. He went back to forestry road for duties for one day.

Findley finished his testimony by stating, "I felt somehow I had failed." GW had him repeat this and then dramatically replied, "Constable, you did not fail." The judge was about to object, but GW said "no further questions". (NOTE: Judge became increasingly upset throughout GW's questioning of Cst. Findley - he became pouty, furrowed his brow and rubbed his forehead constantly).

DC - refers to Sarich botched meeting. Findley aware a lawyer was working for camp trying to resolve the problems. Judge: "This is all classic hearsay. Are you saying the Crown can do the same?" DC explains that Findley had a knowledge of the dynamic and it was necessary to establish that. Judge asks him to be brief, glancing at the clock (3:55 pm). The campers' belief was reinforced by Findley's report. Judge allows Findley's diagram of land reduction as an exhibit because he had showed it to the people at the camp.

Felt that something bad (a dead person like Ipperwash) could happen. "We don't gain any credibility by taking a day off...I thought it was necessary that I remain."

MA - last time in camp was July 12. Aug. 26, he was at roadblock. Between July 12 to Aug. 26, no senior officer ever contacted him about his involvement at the lake.

SF - asks Findley to come back to court on August 12th after break.

   * Day 10: Monday, July 22                * Day 13: Thursday, July 25
   * Day 11: Tuesday, July 23               * Day 14: Friday, July 26 
   * Day 12: Wednesday, July 24