Trial, Week 5: Summary - August 20


WEEK 5: AUGUST 20 - 23, 1996

   * Day 20: Mon. August 19 - no report yet   * Day 23: Thursday, August 22
   * Day 21: Tuesday, August 20               * Day 24: Friday, August 23 
   * Day 22: Wednesday, August 21


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia

TUESDAY, AUGUST 20, 1996 - DAY 21

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Before jury enters, ST states that he has no objection to evidence, would just like it noted whether they will be entered as exhibits or not.

Jury in.

JF - Cst. Demerais cont'd. - Exhibit 80 - KSM bill for Percy Rosette found in brown Parisienne (Veh A). A39 - cartridges. A42 - fatigue pants. Exhibit 81 - "Art of War" book. JF notes this is incorrectly marked. A44 - Standard model G something land mobile telephone found behind Veh C. Also found binoculars, 9 pages of paper marked ceasefire. In Parisienne, (not marked on map), found roll of film, 40 channel CB, machete, 50 channel scanner. In blue Olds 88, (not listed) found battery pack for realistic transceiver, empty box of .22 ammo, cammo shirt. Exhibit 28 - "Guerilla Warfare" book found on roof of Parisienne. Madame Registrar and J confused. JF will clear up after break. Exhibit 89 - facepaint cammo stick found in Honda Civic (veh D) as well as cammo t-shirt, Netset programmable scanner, Netset scanner, green fatigue pants. Exhibit 90 - Olin 12 guage signal launcher found in veh D as well as 7 flares. Exhibit 91 - flares. Veh D also had 1 live Winchester round. In 2nd tent on left, found cammo pants, fatigue shirt, cammo rain pants, cammo T-shirt, Model fatigue pants, wooden handle knife, Orion hunting knife, folding lock blade knife, cammo jacket, green with orange balaclava. Exhibit 29 - 2 x Guns and Ammo magazines. In 2nd tent on left, found denim jacket and flare in pocket. Exhibit 31 - GST, care card and 2 pill cases - all marked with Grant Archie's name. Also found handkerchief and ...... Exhibit 30 - instruction sheet for Lakefield bolt action rifle. On 3rd tent on left, found grey vinyl raincoat, fatigue pants, cammo jacket, green fatigue jacket. Exhibit 33 - air rifle.

On 2nd day (Sept. 19/95) he seized more items. Next place he searched was the camp fire pit. Exhibit 66 - remnants of AK47 assault rifle - described to him by firearms expert. HR says he doesn't know that. J agrees and says it has to be described as undescribed remnants. Exhibit 67 - remnants of burned item. Exhibit 68 - remnants of a rifle. Also found in fire pit 5 rifle casings and 2 shotgun casings. In 4th tent on left, found black folder with papers in the name of Percy. In 6th tent, found 2 letters to Garth Christopher, and one from Garth. ST asks for the jury to leave and they do. ST points out that Garth is awaiting a court date and under the Young Offenders Act, his name shouldn't be published. JF says she'll look into it and may not enter it as evidence. J agrees and will at deal with it later. Jones would like to see the evidence used against us. Jury back. In 6th tent, found cammo handkerchief, mosquito hat, t-shirt, pants, jacket with hood, 3 hunting knives, Huntsmen hunting knife. In 7th tent on left, found empty 44 magnum casing, wallet with $12.64. Exhibit 35 - 3 letters addressed to SF and a photocopy of her passport. Exhibit 38 - empty 222 casing. Exhibit 37 - 2 empty 22-250 cartridges. Also found handwritten phone number list. Exhibit 36 - live .22 round.

Next location was garbage pile next to cabin - found 4 empty ammo boxes, 44mag, 7.62, winchester, and winchester wildcat. Exhibit 69 - 5 spent 30-30 casings. Exhibit 70 - 2 spent .303 British casings. Also found in garbage, 2 empty 308 winchester casings. Next location was cabin. Exhibit 39 - 4 gas masks with filter canisters. Exhibit 40 - Micronta 4001 metal detector. Also from log cabin, cammo pants, transceiver, yellow book. Exhibit 41 - chainsaw chain tied to nylon rope.

Exhibit 42 - 2 live 22.50 cartridges. Also found BC radio frequency list, handwritten press release. Exhibit 64 - black metal handle containing 3 cartridges and nylon something.

MB/ Waiting for SF. JF continues with Demerais - Exhibit 43 - Handwritten press release. Exhibit 44 - 18" club with nail in end. Next location was 1st tent on right. Found cammo rain pants, cammo t-shirt. Exhibit 81 - "Art of war" by Sun Tzu. Explains mismatch of markings. Exhibit 28 - "Guerilla Warfare" by Che Guevera found on roof of veh A. Noted that since he turned books over to Cst. Leslie, noted that bags had been cut open and resealed. It appears that books were mixed up then. In 2nd tent on right, found Casio digital diary. On ground found live .22 bullet, between two tents (2L and 4L). Exhibit 71 - ? found outside 7L. Also found empty .22 box. Found unidentifiable casings in fire pit near fence. Found 2 cammo mosquito hats near cabin. Exhibit 72 - rifle magazine with 10 308 bullets found inside tree between ribbon area and pit 3. Also found live 7.62x39 round 350 yards NE of camp. Exhibit 73 - 37 spent 7.62x39 casings 300 yards NE of camp.

Also found empty box of 22-250 Remington near hill bunker. Describes bunker as being on hill - a couple of structures dug into the dirt - wood piled up to hide people. Describes molotov cocktail in Dad's root beer bottle found on hill. Understands molotov to be a bottle or can filled with flammable substance and with a wick in the end. Admits he doesn't know if there was an explosive substance inside. Some jury members are missing pages of photos - this is resolved. He saw some sort of liquid inside. Exhibit 74 - Dad's root beer bottle ("molotov cocktail"). Notes that rag is missing and liquid has been poured out. In front of firepit, he found burned ammunition box. Doesn't recall opening it or knowing what was inside. In garbage found empty package of Hi-8 video. Found 303 magazine near fence (by 7L) with 7 rounds inside. Exhibit 75 - is said magazine. Also found spent 7mm casing near rock 750 yards SW of cabin. Calls it a shooting pit because pit is in ground near forested area overlooking open area. ID's shooting pit as pit #3. Exhibit 77 - 5 spent 7.62x39 in field 150 yards SW of camp. Also found live 7.62.x39. Exhibit 78 - 6 7mm empty casings from bottom of shooting pit near fence south of camp. Says this pit dug into ground and he thought it was a defensive position. Break for lunch. GW - brings Anne Notnes in. He tells J that she's withdrawing surety for OJ and says that someone needed J's direction. Will wait until 1:30 when Crown is back. L/ GW brings Anne in again. Says she wants money and deed returned. LB isn't sure about his position nor is J. Jury in.

JF with Demerais cont. - Re Exhibit 59 - green metal ammo box with ammo inside. Over lunch break, Demerais notes that initially, he read 120 7.62x39 rounds, but now he has counted only 104. Exhibit __, 727 initially counted, now only 505 rounds. Exhibit 62 - says that he noted originally 108 bullets, now there are 3 extra boxes. On 3rd day of seizing exhibits, he continued numbering system. Ultimately, he took all exhibits seized over 3 days and counted items to check numbers. Then handed it over to Cst. Leslie. He didn't alter any of the exhibits. Exhibit 34 - re: Garth's letter - JF wants it marked as evidence and suggests that nothing in letter indicates Garth is a youth. HR - Confirms that there were a number of people that pointed out exhibits to Demerais and then he marked them down. HR notes Demerais' reference to a shooting pit. Demerais says there was nothing in it. Four feet deep. Notes that hole is 30' in from treeline, but he says there were no trees in front of it. HR wonders why tree line is drawn in front of it then on the map. Pit 2 is described as dug under tree. Doesn't know how deep. Figures 2 people his size could fit inside. HR suggests that this pretty small for a shooting pit. Demerais says pit 3 is bigger. HR says the term "shooting pit" sounds pretty sinister. Demerais explains that, to him, most shooting pits are slit trenches. HR notes that they're not usually round. Demerais noted that near tree bunker, willows nearby had branches missing. HR notes that 2 isn't described as a shooter's pit - 3 is. Other hole by fence was 8' across and 4' deep. Admits this hole is right out in the open, but says they have great observation. HR notes that to have hole in the open would invite fire from an armoured car and that to have a shooting pit, you'd want it inside the trees so you can see, but others can't see you. Demerais: "Yea if you're doing it properly." HR: "If you're doing it at all." Pit 3 is round, not narrow. Demerais says tree pit could possibly hold two people and faces SW of camp. HR suggests that his description makes it sound like a defensive position and it in fact was a very amateurish effort. Demerais agrees. HR explains what "revetting" is, to keep walls from caving in and entombing you. Demerais never saw one like that although he said he spent a couple of days in a pit during military exercises. These pits had no revetting. Re: pipe bomb - says it was blown up to ensure it was in fact explosive. HR suggests you can also open it up and test the contents to see what it is. Demerais agrees that that's another way of dealing with it. Says Ted Tieson and Gabriel blew up pipe bomb. He had nothing to do with arrests. Seized items Sept. 18 at 16:30 to Sept. 21st, 15:24. Says 10 rifles were found together and one or two in fire pit. 10 rifles found in tree bunker. HR suggests this was a storage pit for the rifles. When Demerais asks when, HR says from the beginning for all he knew. It could just as well have been a shooting pit as a storage pit. Admits that what hole was, is a matter of opinion.

ST - Demerais admits that final flow chart is polished version of what he started with. ST points out that he used various shorthands in original chart and final chart doesn't reflect the notes he had. Says he took great care in recording things and was accompanied by member of forensics. Demerais says expert of forensics took photos, but can't say he was there for each photo. Re: A1 arrow found in tree bunker. Original note said arrow found at base of coniferous tree. Admits he added term "bunker" later around Sept. 23.

Refers to photo 1158 - can't say he can ID photos prior to 1158 nor what it looked like before cover was lifted. Notes Tieson had found bunker originally, but doesn't really know who found it first nor who had placed yellow ribbon there. Tieson member of Explosives Unit and was there before Demerais got there. Reference to 14:45 is only when he first observed said item. Page 4, A13-1 describes burlap bag bomb was found in. Admits he isn't an expert at explosives. Thinks he can tell difference between pipe bomb and galvanized metal because he has taken courses in it and knows how to make one. Doesn't know what was inside bomb nor what kind of fuse was sticking out of end. Says it was green and could be a time fuse. Admits it may not be a fuse. He admits that "in all likelihood", it was a bomb, but can't say for sure. Was there when it was detonated. Tieson and Gabriel believed to be regular members of RCMP but weren't wearing uniform. They didn't confirm qualifications.

Ref to when Tieson and Gabriel found bomb is not noted, but Demerais doesn't know when. Says it was within 20 minutes of locating it in the latrine. He doesn't know for sure who found it, but is sure it wasn't him in latrine. 18:03 is when he seized it. Last item seized before then was an hour earlier. Doesn't know what he did in hour between, but is sure he was in general area. A17, A18, A19 located by ERT. A20 has no reference to who found it. Demerais admits it was speculation that it was ERT that had found it. It was only by virtue of a yellow ribbon. A1 had yellow ribbon too so it could have been ERT that found it too. To his knowledge, Tieson had found tree bunker. EDU (Explosives Disposal Unit) was only there for 18 September. Says he saw them at 2 pm when they blew up "alleged bomb" and 3 pm when they gave him remnants. J gave wicked, cynical laugh on hearing reference from Demerais of "alleged bomb." Remnants called A13. Re: whisky bottle found in field, Demerais says there was no fingerprint man there. When asked what forensics importance whisky bottle could have, he says it was better to have it and not need it than the other way around. Admits the bottle could have been around for a long time. Re: wine skin containing what he believed to be explosives. Someone told him and he agreed black powder could have been explosives. He's not an expert to identify this. Re: Exhibit 83, peaceful resolution signed by Percy Rosette. ST notes package has since been opened and initials put on it. Doesn't know whose initials they are, but says Cst. Leslie was the last person he gave evidence to. ST wants bag opened and J agrees. Demerais has document. Admits he doesn't know Percy nor his handwriting. ST asks if it was possible that there was a paper put in since he seized it. Demerais agrees. He says Ken Carrothers located it 8 minutes before he seized it. Carrothers called him over. Re: A43 - found on roof of Parisienne - doesn't recall if book was on hood of car. But he testified book was found in same location as A122. Was it on roof or 1st tent on the left? He says the roof. AB/ SF missing so ST can't raise housekeeping matters. ST brings up discrepancies JF discovered and he's allowing her to reopen it. Youth thing with Garth will be dealt with later.

JF to Demerais - Exhibit 51 - says discrepancies related to fact he counted two different groups to come up with the overall larger total that seemed 200 rounds short. ST - A57 and A58 refer to programable scanners. He didn't test them to see if they worked. Likewise, other electronics weren't tested. Likewise with weapons and ammo. He isn't an expert and can't say for sure whether they were functional or not. Re: Molotov, he believes liquid was poured out before he bagged it. Doesn't recall if it was done in front of forensics or not. Re: A132 - 37 spent 7.62x39 casings - in photo, there are stakes in ground, but doesn't know who placed stakes there. Forensics member with him then. First alerted to job a couple of days before Sept. 18. Admits there would have been a few briefings. Was advised on the scene that ERT would go through site first to find items of interest to them. Admits this was a surprise, but understood they were there to ensure safety of scene. Is aware that there were thousands of rounds fired by police in area too. ST asks if there was a single police casing that he seized. Says he doesn't know who bullets belonged to. Says he doesn't know what make or calibre RCMP used. When asked about investigating around the APC site, he said he wasn't involved in that. Can't say he observed any bullets in the trees.

ST wonders why he would record a whisky bottle and not bullets in the trees. Claims his function was to seize evidence. If forensics had told him to cut a tree down, he would have, but he never saw anyone doing so. He was told to seize all spent casings in the area. He was guided by others what to seize and not to seize if he had any question.

GW - confirms Demerais was at Salmon Arm Detachment, sister detachment to Chase where there was a roadblock at Adams Lake in '95. Doesn't know if Len Olfert was in charge there. Knows that Olfert was in charge of Merrit where there was also a roadblock (Douglas Lake). He was first in Sept. 1st or so. He had no idea he was going to Gustafsen Lake. He was asked to attend with the negotiating team.

GW asks who native was on negotiating team, and he says it might be himself. No one ever ordered him back because he might have problems later in Salmon Arm. Aware that there were other native members in RCMP, but didn't wonder where native officers were when he got there. Would assume that all members would be involved in Gustafsen Lake including the native officers. Had heard Cst. Andrew was involved, but not to what degree. Knew Cst. Wood was assigned to Canim Lake to take over his duties - he was making inquiries there. Didn't see Cst. Andrew at Gustafsen Lake so assumed he wasn't there. Doesn't know of Cst. Findley. Never saw Findley's or Andrew's reports. One of his first tasks was to call John Stevens. He began investigating Stevens and discovered Stevens had been in area in June. He called Cochrane area in Alberta and discovered he was a respected elder in the area. Thinks he discovered Stevens' phone number, but knows he resided in Morley, Alberta. Knows there is a big reserve there. He didn't make direct contact with camp. His prime job as #4 was to find people that would be able to bring people out of camp. Admits that he was acting under the direction of Sgt. Ryan. Doesn't recall that as a result of Stevens going in there, the people in the camp left. Re: Ernie Archie, he doesn't recall the name. Re: Exhibit 43, press release from Shuswap Nation in neat English. Reference to a sacred staff and forums on document. Can't say that it's Ernie's writing or not. Shows him Exhibit 34 by Garth. Notes that two letters to Garth are from different people. Letter says he shot his first moose and caught many fish at camp. GW says Demerais seized it because it suggested that people were hunting and fishing in the camp. Demerais denies this is why he seized it. Demerais agrees that there are natives who live off the land and those natives would need a few rifles. You would need a large calibre weapon to kill a moose. You wouldn't use a .22 to hunt a grouse "because then you wouldn't have a grouse left." GW notes that with 15 weapons, and 10 people here, it wouldn't have been unusual to see these weapons "except of course the FN and the AK47". He saw one deer hide at camp. It wouldn't surprise him to hear of people hunting in this area. In photo of seized weapons, 10 guns were wrapped in bundle and in tree hole. Agrees that this would be about a third of the weapons he seized. Didn't know that accused were charged with weapons charges. He doesn't know who put weapons in blanket, under what circumstances they were placed and when they were put there. He is friends with Cpl. Bob Harrison so may have spoken to him that summer. Also knows of Murray Smith. Isn't aware of either of the two telling him of Ernie Archie. Not aware that Cpl. Harrison spoke to Ernie on Sept. 5/95 nor that Harrison had info on weapons in the encampment. He was in the negotiating team, but says all info wasn't funnelled through them, but through headquarters. GW asks if he knows anything of Ernie Archie or that the RCMP knew of his weapons in the camp. Agrees that someone handled rifles and then he handled them.

Admits he learned early about fingerprints and not to handle surface of weapon until it was dusted for prints. Demerais says forensics man would have told him if he wanted them dusted. Admits he doesn't know what instructions the forensics were given. He doesn't believe the guns were fingerprinted. Didn't note any fingerprint film on any of the weapons. He never asked Carrothers why he wasn't fingerprinting because "he's the expert." Admits there weren't any factors to prevent them from being dusted at the scene. "It wouldn't have been practical, but they could have done it." Forensics didn't tell him to be careful with any of the weapons. Likewise for the metal ammo box. No one tried to lift the prints to his knowledge. GW asks Demerais to suppose that a police informant were in the camp and suggests that "you wouldn't look that hard to identify him, would you?" J says he doesn't have to answer that question. Demerais doesn't know whose blanket guns were wrapped in.

Jury stood down. ST draws attention to Garth being a youth. J makes note that Young Offenders Act applies here as far as publishing his name.

GW - makes note that Crown has made disclosures of Ernie Archie and Defense may be call him as a witness.

   * Day 20: Mon. August 19 - no report yet   * Day 23: Thursday, August 22
   * Day 21: Tuesday, August 20               * Day 24: Friday, August 23 
   * Day 22: Wednesday, August 21