Trial, Week 5: Summary - August 22


WEEK 5: AUGUST 20 - 23, 1996

   * Day 20: Mon. August 19 - no report yet   * Day 23: Thursday, August 22
   * Day 21: Tuesday, August 20               * Day 24: Friday, August 23 
   * Day 22: Wednesday, August 21


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia

THURSDAY, AUGUST 22, 1996 - DAY 23

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

ST - Crown gave him more evidence and he wants to look through it before finishing cross-examination. Jury in. Cst. Leslie (LL) back on witness stand for cross- examination.

GW - LL at 100 Mile House since '94. 16 years on force. Admits that standard way of dealing with crime scene is for investigator to place yellow tape around scene. He was appointed by Sarich on Aug. 27/95 to be exhibit man. Continuity of Possession means that once it has come into his possession, he's in control of who handles it afterward. Re: bulletproof vests, he took vests from Molendyk and Clelland. Confirms Ex. 110 - J001. Confirms a number of officers looking at it at various times. It was sent to Kamloops Forensics through Tremblay. Confirms other vest has similar history. Confirms only person to have access to exhibit locker was himself. Confirms that if there were any security breaches, he would have reported it to Sarich. Something he never did. On day of shooting, he admits that there was an RCMP film crew that looked at it, but he was in control of vest. Believes he opened bag once to show person noted on flow chart. Understands it's important that bullet holes in vest shouldn't be disturbed by people poking things into holes to disturb them. Understands that this is to check calibre of weapon. GW says he's going to show video where people are poking at vest. LL only knows of RCMP film crew. Jury stood down to find spot on video tape. Jury back. LL admits he recognized scene while video was being shown without the jury. LL explains incident is in his notebook, but not in jury's flow chart - because he didn't have the flow chart with him. Video shown of press conference held by Cpl. John Ward where he pokes the vest. LL says that Ward is from Vancouver media liaison unit. Admits that Ward isn't a forensics person or investigator. Admits Ward would have contact with all the media because he is media liaison officer. LL didn't make entry into jury's police record. GW: "Sorry I whistle, I don't have all my teeth folks." Chuckles. GW suggests that LL didn't note media contact with vest because he doesn't want people to see how the RCMP work with the media. LL disagrees and reiterates that he didn't have flow chart with him that day. LL admits he was instructed to remove exhibits by Sgt. Shakey on Sept. 4th at 14:30 who told him to bring vests to garage so they could show vests to media. GW notes that coincidentally, on the 4th, there was a news conference saying officers were being stalked in the woods. He does remember going to Victoria to look at a Suburban mirror to see if it was hit by a bullet. Went with Brian McConaghy to look at mirror to see if it would be made evidence. He admits he was aware of allegations that vehicle had been shot at by camp inhabitants. Says tests were inconclusive. Doesn't recall hearing on media of RCMP officers being chased through the bush. GW notes that on Sept. 5th, RCMP made announcement that APC's were being called in. LL doesn't remember that - it wasn't his job or he wasn't told personally of this. Admits he did hear of Suburban "ambush" because he handled the evidence. He recalls Ward pointing at holes, but says he instructed Ward not to touch them. Says he doesn't know what the media would have done with information - "I don't know what the agenda was of the person that told me to display the vests." He doesn't know when media would show this, why etc. "On the scale of need to know, I wasn't even on the scale." He won't admit that he knew there are some things that you don't put in the public record. Won't even say it was an oversight. "There was no hidden agenda."

It never crossed LL's mind that there were some things he shouldn't record because a defense lawyer may eventually suggest that the evidence would be contaminated. GW asks if there are any other incidents like this that aren't noted on the public record. LL says he would have to be shown specific incidents where there are discrepancies. 1st time LL went to Gustafsen Lake was Sept. 18/95 at 12:00. Says there were other personnel there, but he wasn't allowing the public in. He doesn't recall seeing any media there. Admits that it's important that no one but police people be allowed in there because unauthorized people could do mischief. Says in his history, he's never allowed unauthorized persons into his crime scene. On Sept. 18th, doesn't recall any unauthorized persons there. That night he returned to 100 Mile House area. Doesn't know who secured area that night. Next day on the 19th, he returned. That day he remembered the media being there, but not at his scene. Remembers them being in main encampment, but not on his scene. Doesn't know who invited him there. Admits his position is important because all evidence going to the jury goes through him. Doesn't remember which day media was there. He never told commander that media was there because they weren't in his scene. Remembers upper echelon being there - Montague perhaps there. LL would be surprised if media allowed to wander around into crime scenes. GW has other video to show so stand down for early break. MB/ J says that jury wonders what the rank structure of the RCMP is so they can better understand. GW puts forward regulations from RCMP and J will look at it before making it evidence for the jury.

GW plays video: shots of tree bunker and Sgt. Montague speaking to media. LL confirms that Montague is media liaison officer. Confirms that a Sgt. gives orders to Cpl. and Cst. LL admits he didn't order media there. GW continues video and Montague lists all the weapons found in hole. LL saw Percy's cabin and sees AG Ujjal Dosanjh standing by Gustafsen Lake. Believes he came in by helicopter. LL notes that signs are missing from Percy's cabin, which was last evidence that he seized. He has no knowledge that this was a political move to have media circus there. Dosanjh didn't hand him any evidence, didn't interview him. LL doesn't know who authorized AG's presence there. Admits that he has never heard of a politician with stature of AG turn up at police scenes. LL knows AG is Chief police of B.C. Agrees this is the largest amount of members he's seen at one place. Re: Aug. 18th report of Cst. Wilby being shot at. Doesn't recall direct knowledge of this or of seeing this on the news. Agrees that people coming from 100 Mile House would come down 1000 Road and that there is one other road from north. Didn't hear of Wilby incident. Doesn't know when road was closed off. GW continues video and shot of what LL describes as high rock bunker. GW wonders if this is a sweat lodge, LL doesn't think that's what it is. Believes this is something you would want to hide in. Video on again and shot of reporter next to hole in ground. Admits reporter was on site. He is not sure who invited media there. LL says that media didn't see any of his exhibits - except vests. Sept. 5th, news report in paper of Ward speaking about officers being chased through the bush. Doesn't recall this report. Only thing he remembers from early Sept. was inspecting Suburban mirror for bullet hit. No knowledge of what mirror incident was. GW pulls out exhibits (chequebooks and receipt in name of Suniva) seized from truck handed over from Sgt. Grey, seized by Insp. on Sept. 13. Doesn't recall date road was closed. Does know there were dates on some of these exhibits. Hotel receipt was dated Aug. 21, 1995. GW suggests that Suniva was there that day. Says 3.5 hours from Prince George. Also a newspaper exhibit dated Aug. 24, 1995. Newspaper from red truck. When GW says truck was blown up, LL will only say it was disabled. OJ: "Same thing." GW turns to OJ: "Don't ever do that." LL says newspaper comes into 100 Mile House at 6 a.m. Admits that someone would have had to put the newspaper into truck, would have done it on or after Aug. 24th. He didn't fingerprint newspaper. Says he sent in rifles from hole for fingerprinting. He knows they were sent in to Forensics for analysis. Insists they were sent for fingerprinting. Hasn't seen reports. Of hundreds of casings he seized, he says he sent some for analysis. Those from scene C (Suburban "ambush" scene) sent in. Not those from inside Suburban. He says he knows those were RCMP rounds. Only those of unknown origin were sent in. He never got reports back. Assumes casings are dusted because people would handle bullets. GW puts forward receipts, chequebooks and newspaper as Ex. 171. Asks LL to bring out other evidence during lunch hour. LB notes that is already Ex. 157 - receipt from province of B.C. in name of David Pena. LL says this came from red truck. Date on receipt is 22 Aug. '95. LL didn't investigate this receipt. Ex. L012 from Grant Archie described as black ball cap. L113 is leather vest. Madame Registrar asked to show Ex. 7 of photos of people being arrested. Photos 190-193. LL says picture is of Grant who has vest on. GW asks when vest was seized - 19 Sept. '95. Says this is date it was seized by Cpl. Guignon. He got it 20 Sept. There is error in typed jury version when item was seized. LL had no information that person with vest was shooting someone. No one asked him to send vest in for analysis. It sat in locker since it was seized. Won't admit that you can make life miserable by taking clothing away - he never took vest away. No officer came to him wanting to see vest like bullet proof vests. LL asked investigators what seized clothing would be used for and was told it would be used for identification in photographs. Re: exhibit O-001 - clothing from Cst. Russell on 20 Sept. Record shows Russell got it 18 Sept. LL didn't see how clothing was taken, found, or anything. Agrees that no member has come to him asking for these items. Clothing has not been sent for analysis and has sat in locker since he took control of it. DC - Notes number of shell casings of unknown origin seized from A,B,C, and K. LL confirms numerous casings were seized by himself - all of C were seized by himself. Can't say when casings were placed on ground but agrees Gustafsen Lake a popular place for hunters. Confirms that flow chart would not be accurate about who initially seized items. B items came from Sgt. Grey. Doesn't know how they were seized. DC says he understands that a bag full of hundreds of RCMP M-16 casings were found in camp on car - would have been found by Demerais. LL clarifies that he picked up hundreds of rounds from another area - .223 and 9mm casings. Notes book that deals with evidence of Suburban incident. Photo 7 and 8 of Clelland's back and Molendyk's vest. Actual vest didn't have red on it like picture. LL says this is laser copy and may not accurately depict colour. Admits that red on Clelland's back may not be accurate. Admits that there is a lot more red in photos depicted than in others.

Re: Suniva - admits that she is only person to his knowledge that actually had a bullet penetrate skin. Says polaroids taken were before bullet was removed. As far as he is aware, he doesn't know of any ballistics test done on this bullet. DC looks for bullet which he brought today because of defense request. L9 is police number for bullet. Admits that no one in RCMP has shown any interest in looking at the bullet.

DC has bag opened. DC asks to have bullet made Ex. 172. Notes that this appears to be a hollow point. DC says that if this bullet was found in RCMP arm, it would have had extensive tests done on it. LL doesn't know. Jury stands down. J has decision on admissibility of Bruce Clark's letter to Sarich. Says at time of cross-examination by SF, he declined to enter it as an exhibit, but MA and HR argued that it should be. Recounts their arguments. (See Notes from Wednesday, August 21, 1996). HR said that it wasn't necessary now until groundwork laid. J agrees. Though likely it will be admitted later, he declines to do so now.

L/ J says jury looking for clarification of what shell means. LL says shell is empty casing. Bullet is piece on end. J takes RCMP structure and made exhibit. MA - Asks if Sarich told him of planned assault on Aug. 28, day after he became involved. Confirms Andrew and Wood were stationed there, but doesn't know why Sarich didn't make them exhibit men. Made exhibit man following "shooting" of Clelland and Molendyk. Doesn't know if anyone made tests on vests for muzzle blast residue. Re: his finding hundreds of 9mm and .223 casings, gets LL to point out on map where they were found - Bison scene - to right of road way in clearing. LL says shells at Surrey detachment. Can't say if they are clearly RCMP casings. MA asks him to bring casings in to be made an exhibit. From Clelland, he seized 1 MP5 weapon. Doesn't know if that is submachine gun. M-16 seized from Molendyk. Weapons were returned to Insp. Perry Edwards of ERT. He doesn't know why they weren't made exhibits in trial. MA asks that some officer be called in so that said weapons could be made exhibits. J agrees. LL was at camp scene, taking orders from Staff Sgt. Ren, Cpl. Gehl and Clark. He says he determined whether things were important or not. When asked how he knew things were important, he just made his own decisions. Agrees he had a minor morning briefing run by Insp. Gary Bass at 100 Mile House Command centre on Aug. 18 before he went in. Doesn't recall if there were any written instructions given. MA looks at LL notebook and wonders what entry is about receiving 6 pages. Says he didn't seize sacred items because the Sundance grounds were Demerais' scene. Note of finding Aboriginal Sovereignty Quarterly in home. LL says this was made exhibit. He didn't check Bisons, explosives used on red truck or dog - wasn't his site. MA asks about 1 litre bottle with hole cut out and wrapped in green army tape. He wants to check notes. Jury stood down.

J back - ST asks about article. LB notes that papers seized were personal and only intends to enter it only if information is relevant.

GW - would like to ensure that items LL has remain down here before he goes back to 100 Mile House. LB says this is being done.

Jury back.

MA - LL didn't have bottle. LL says that with reference to red truck, he went there with ident. team. Cpl. Gehl shot video there. At time he seized pink shirt found in woods leading away from red truck. He didn't seize any trip wires or stun grenades set by RCMP because they would have been removed first. He also didn't seize RCMP high powered rifle with laser scope. He doesn't have original photos of Molendyk and Clelland. Says these would have been given to Tassell.

ST - LL at scene A at noon. He was aware that Demerais had already been assigned to this scene. Though he got there at noon, he didn't go to actual scenes until later. 16:30 he was at Percy's lease (site D). His knowledge was that Percy had leased this place. When he arrived, with Gehl, Clark and Ren, 2 ERT members met them there. He wasn't aware that ERT had been there for days prior. Regarding log structures built around site with initials carved in saying Vancouver ERT, he doesn't know who built them. Cabin was still there at time. He remembers structures, but can't remember which way they were facing. ST suggests that these were like bunkers that they could be used by ERT members in case of attack. He says that he isn't sure if ERT teams used structures. No one said that to him. Pulls out D-001 on request of ST.

Described as Sovereignty Newsletter Quarterly. Made Ex. 173. Sundance flyer made Ex. 174. Aug. 11 '93, 100 Mile House article made Ex. 177. Left Percy's that evening. LL now notes that log structures constructed by North Vancouver ERT members. Says either Wayland or O'Brian told him this, one of the 2 ERT guys that met him. That was it for seizures for Sept. 18. He thinks media was there following his completion of seizing exhibits from the crime scene because that's normally how it's done. He received Demerais' weapons from tree bunker on 22 Sept. Between time of Demerais' seizure and LL getting it, weapons were in temporary storage locker. Can't say for certain if media was there on 18 Sept. Signs found on Percy's cabin, "Sovereigntists, Not Terrorists", seized Sept. 22, 11 a.m. Though he saw on video that signs were down and presumed to be after the 22nd, he says that he was the man in the video who was raising the lid of the tree hole for the media. ST would like video played again later. Goes forward to exhibits seized from Clelland and Molendyk. J3 live 9mm round taken from breech of MP5. Confirms that this means the bullet could be fired. Made Ex. 178. Right mag of MP5 made Ex. 180. 31 live rounds from mag made Ex. 181. Live .223 round made Ex. 182. 13 live rounds from M-16 mag made Ex. 183. Jury shown these exhibits.

AB/ Cst. Leslie cont'd. - Pulls out big bag of casings: 804 x .223 and 71 x 9mm. This made an exhibit. Black vinyl folder full of papers with Percy's name on it made Ex ?.

SF - Said he found paper "not to resist is to collaborate" and LL says it was made exhibit. Other paper about Privy Council found in dresser of Percy's lease. He doesn't recall seeing letters of support in Percy's, except those already noted. Admits there were papers there that he didn't seize - only if they caught his eye. Doesn't remember seeing letters from New Zealand and Washington supporting people in the camp. LB points out that SF may be confused thinking Percy's lease is his cabin. SF reads parts of some of the seized papers - "we cannot negotiate the law. We can only address the law as it exists." SF asks to enter B.C. flag as exhibit. J wonders why. SF explains that the flag was hung in a way the Shuswap remember it originally being. LL doesn't remember flag hanging sideways. Photo 822 shows flag sideways. LL shown photo and believes that flag may have been sideways. Reads from document by Bruce Clark. LL says he chose it because it had Clark's name on it. Made Ex. 186. "The RCMP don't care about constitutional or domestic law. They have broken both when they refused water into the camp." Re: MA's question on how things were chosen, he says again, that it was based on personal choice. He was aware of Dr. Clark's name because he was in 100 Mile House when Clark came in. SF wants signs brought in, but J wonders if that is helpful when the jury already has photos of the signs. SF says fine.

LB - missed a question earlier. Asks about B29, pair of black gloves. Came from Cpl. Kiloh. Made Ex. 187.

SF - asks about B.C. flag because there may be bullet holes in flag. J agrees.

LB - says HR hopes he has no more witnesses. J agrees it's been a long day. LB says he has some other applications to forward, so jury stood down.

LB - Re: D exhibits. There was question of what would be forwarded. Notes that ST has entered some documents that have not been led for their content. They're newspaper articles. He's concerned that these papers note forestry workers incidents which J has already said can't be led. LB concerned that other counsel may not be aware of what ST entered.

ST - says that Sarich brought up these incidents from which J also asked if the jury isn't going to confused with these news incidents. ST notes that these are only newspapers articles and this jury was selected because they could set news articles aside and judge solely on the evidence. His concern is that jury will be more concerned about what is being held back than what is going forward. J will reserve decision.

We leave a half hour early today.

   * Day 20: Mon. August 19 - no report yet   * Day 23: Thursday, August 22
   * Day 21: Tuesday, August 20               * Day 24: Friday, August 23 
   * Day 22: Wednesday, August 21