Trial, Week 6: Summary - August 28


WEEK 6: AUGUST 26 - 30, 1996

   * Day 25: Monday, August 26            * Day 28: Thursday, August 29
   * Day 26: Tuesday, August 27           * Day 29: Friday, August 30 
   * Day 27: Wednesday, August 28


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

MA - seeks an order for Cst. Wilby to bring in firearms like M-16, side arm, etc.

LB - says it's unusual and wonders what the relevance is. He doubts police would need an order to hand over such exhibits. On practical side, he says there are no surplus M-16s or sidearms available and it may take some time to get them. Legal side - is there any probative value to this? Though excess force has been raised, it has only been in a charter application which the jury wouldn't hear anyway.

J asks why the jury should have these weapons in their hands. MA says self-defense is an issue here. Plus the witness did raise the M-16 to his shoulder before he heard the shot. He's not surprised that the Crown isn't putting weapon forward anymore then they would put in the bag of shells. J suggests a photo will do but MA argues that Crown could have done the same with the camp weapons.

HR - Asks Wilby to leave gallery. HR says that RW testified that a sniper was there who could fire 400 yards away. This isn't the case of a police officer identifying himself as an officer. This is a case of men moving in a stealth way.

GW - This relates to JoJo. If the jury decides that the shooter is JoJo, then they have to be able to consider self-defense. GW has seen the RCMP video re-creations and you see men in cammo walking through the bush - you can't see the weapons.

ST - notes that Wilby describes how he raised weapon and that he ought to be able to demonstrate this with a weapon in his hands.

LB - suggests something else could be used to demonstrate this. Says bringing a weapon in now isn't practical, plus Cst. McConaghy, a weapons expert, will be called in as a witness and he might be able to provide a weapon.

J reiterates arguments made and agrees weapon should be produced because of self-defense argument. Practically, J says weapons expert can bring in M-16, and Wilby can use another exhibit.

JF - says she will be bringing up Wilby's conversation with Supt. Olfert following the "incident" of Aug. 18. She says that HR has objected to this, so J asks her what she intends to lead. She will ask what Wilby said, and she expects him to say he told Olfert that police were fired on and they didn't return fire. J wonders what the relevance is of this. She says that the police actions have become an issue here and this will clarify their resulting questions.

HR - says Wilby took no notes and had no battle plan. Claims the only person who can know the intent of a person firing a weapon is the person firing. Wilby may feel he was shot at, but person may have intended to fire above him. J suggests that Wilby's testimony will explain Olfert's following reactions. HR says that's another matter. J wonders if Wilby's comments are nothing more than what he thought shooter was doing.

MA - says Olfert will be a prominent witness but Defense has no notes or anything in disclosures. Wilby will say he interacted with Olfert. He wants full disclosures from Olfert before cross-examining Wilby. Same with Porter and Bass. Their disclosures are minuscule and hampers the ability of the Defense to operate. "It's unfair."

ST - notes that the ERT disclosures reveal they had a consensus following the shooting where they decided they were shot at. How can they rely on hearsay to decide on an issue that now is being put in as evidence? J reiterates arguments and rules that Wilby's evidence shall be restricted to not give opinions of the shooter's intent.

Cst. Ray Wilby (RW) and jury in.

JF - Re: Aug. 18 events. When he retreated from voice, he was holding weapon in both hands (port arms). The first time he heard voice, he only turned head and raised weapon instinctively. Voice to right, barrel pointing to left. He didn't see anything. Though there was a mist, he says it didn't affect his ability to see. First voice heard and very short time after, heard voice again. On word "it", he heard the bullet. He didn't say anything because he knew they had been compromised. Now they only had to decide what to do next. He ran to rock outcropping because his men were already down - he figured if he didn't move he felt he had a good chance of being shot, plus he was concerned that if anyone was up on rock, team would be in a vulnerable position. Says gun was loaded with safety on. He only heard one shot. They ran because they felt they had been compromised and Olfert made it clear not to engage anyone should they become compromised. Says the information they were seeking was long-term intelligence gathering - they didn't get any. Later he told Olfert what occurred.

Sept. 4, he was instructed to take up a stationary position halfway down 1100 Road and to stay there overnight. He was with Kamloops ERT. At daybreak, two Bisons showed up, they boarded, drove down road, met with Victoria ERT, and assisted them back to 100 Mile House. Victoria vehicles were right there. Says they used Bisons for protection.

On Sept. 11th, ERT at crossroads, 1 km north of road into encampment. They arrived 6 a.m. on the 11th and were with Kamloops team, plus two military men in Green Bison for a total of 9 men. Crossroads was an observation position. They were outside of Bison. Two military were dressed in standard green uniform and wearing black bullet proof vests called "beast". ERT members carried Sig Saur 9mm sidearm and M-16. He describes Bison as a 6 wheeled armoured vehicle (it really has 8 wheels). Up front is driver. Behind him is crew commander. Behind them is troop compartment. Capacity is eight. At rear is hydraulic door that drops down. In middle of drop door is combat door. Two hatches are on roof, right and left at the back. 7x4 foot long opening created when big accordion doors opened. Two rear hatches behind big top doors. Large enough to get through. Bisons had been altered in Chilliwack - large signs were put on them on both sides saying "POLICE" with crest. There was also a green flag attached to whip aerial to identify it as Green Bison. Inside of troop compartment are bench seats. "Bosnian Blankets" are hung inside - kevlar blankets designed to prevent any bullets that make it inside from ricocheting. Crew commander was in command of vehicle telling driver which way to go.

Arrived at crossroads location on morning of Sept. 11th, but moved from it at 14:30 because of a call for help over the radio and the sound of gunfire. Three radios in use: 1st were ERT radios (Saver), 2nd was second generation ERT radio and 3rd was Bison radio to be used between Bisons. Gunfire came from Gustafsen Lake. Upon hearing firing, he ordered the Bison started, loaded men inside and proceeded south on 1000 Road. Before radio call, heard an explosion and some gunfire. Pause for a while and then more gunfire. Then the call for help. Explosion came from 1000 Road around a bend - didn't see vehicle, but saw smoke.

They were heading for Gustafsen Lake close to camp to assist Red Bison. Left crossroads, and went south. Tree was on road so they had to put chains on log and pull it out of way. Says because it was military that was calling for help, military driver was racing - so fast they missed the turnoff to Lakeshore Road. Once they got onto lakeshore, they turned right at trails. Turned right because they were following instructions. They were heading for tip of triangle of roads. Heading north, they could see Red Bison sitting in the field. He clarifies that he saw the Bison himself because he was standing up in opening. Red Bison in middle of field with the front facing west. Says two rear metal hatches were open, but large top doors were closed. Didn't notice if driver's or commander's door was open or not. Says to close hatch, you have to stand up to expose head and arm to grab handle. Didn't see anyone in Red or around it.

As they approached, they could hear gunfire coming from the bush. Couldn't tell from which direction gunfire was coming from. Says they were larger calibre weapons and some semi-automatic fire. Explains that semi-auto can be fired as quickly as the trigger is pulled. Knew he heard large calibre weapons from the sound - distinctly different from the semi-auto fire. Says he recognizes the M-16 sound as being lighter than heavier hunting weapons. Describes M-16 as gas operated weapon. Says as they approached Red, he was standing with shoulders and head exposed. Saw Smyth also standing up in rear top hatch. As they pulled in, they were met with fuselage of fire. They ducked down and heard hits hitting outside of Bison. Remembers two large hits hitting rear.

Him and Smyth decided to create a rescue plan. They drove around field a number of times. He had heard radio communications between Red and Green Commanders saying that Red could not turn the vehicle and it had a number of flat tires. They decided to pull up to vehicle and have Red members go into Green. From inside, they determined that they were being hit from three sides. They circled around - the driver had done that. They didn't see anything. He spoke to crew commander and he had a concern of a design flaw in the Bison - HR says he isn't an expert. J reminds jury of this. RW says that in Bison, there are two small windows in rear of door, but none on sides. Person could come up to sides of vehicle undetected. Was concerned about someone setting the grass on fire or a Molotov cocktail being thrown. "This would become a problem for them." Had to decide what to do. He instructed members to begin firing in north, west and east direction. He doesn't recall anyone firing up until this point. Did this to discourage anyone in nearby bush from getting too close. Once the gunfire inside started, he couldn't hear anything. "Like the proverbial steel drum comment made earlier." Says there wasn't panic, but there was concern. ST would like witness to only offer his own feelings - not those of others. They began firing, including him. They stood up and fired into bush around them exposing self from shoulders up.

MB/ On the break, ST sees Cst. Tassell standing in the hallway wearing a nice suit on his large, beefy body and asks him, "Did you ever think of working for the Mob?" Trond reminds ST, "he does."

JF continues with Wilby - RW says he was aware of other gunfire not coming from the Bisons, but coming from the bushes. He discussed with the crew chief how to effect a rescue. Says this was difficult because of how loud it was. "It wasn't panic - it was near panic. That's how much concern there was." You had to scream next to an ear to be heard. Cpl. Senna, dog handler, had dog and they are trained to react to gunfire, so dog started trying to take chunks out of everyone. Senna had his hands full trying to hold back big German sheppard.

RW and commander decided to put Bisons back to back and to lower rear doors which drop very slowly on chains. They intended to lay down fire while members ran from Red to Green. Intending to abandon Red Bison, they tried it. When first member ran the 6 foot space between APCs, massive rounds started to hit vehicles. RW looked at other members in Red and they weren't moving. "Their eyes were as wide as pie plates and they weren't moving." The one member who ran between the APCs moved very quickly. Not easy to get into other Bison. They then closed doors because doors were taking rounds. He had second talk with crew commander because there "was no way members in Red were coming out."

Next plan was to take Red out of there by towing it. Green Bison was only APC with a tow bar - carried on roof between hatches. Concern was that someone had to go out and unlash wishbone bar and bring it inside -then exit with it out of rear combat door. Says the gunfire was constant coming in peaks and valleys. Once plan B was formulated, he requested remaining two APCs at 19 km mark on 1100 Road to come down to sit on either side of six foot gap. Those Bisons arrived, one pulling up on each side. They pulled Green around and put their rear to Red's front. Wilby got out on roof and unlashed towbar. Up there less than a minute. Says there was gunfire from Green's members and from bush. "They forgot to tell me this thing weighs 250 pounds." Passed it back inside. Spoke to Cpl. Maze and Cst. Smyth who were going to get out. Smyth was from Chilliwack ERT and had spent a day and a half learning how to drive Bisons. Smyth was the only one who knew how to hook up tow bar. They got out and dragged bar out. Smyth did most of the work. Bar like fishbone. Two ends go to vehicle to be towed. Single end is a donut that hooks onto hook of towing vehicle. At time, Wilby laying down cover fire into bush. When hooked up Red, they had to get Green to jockey around to put end on hook. They thought it was hooked up. At this point, three APCs involved in laying down fire and couldn't tell if there was any more from bush. Now more than five members on ground. "It seemed like forever - but probably five minutes." They tested hookup. It worked.

They drove down to Lakeshore Road and back to 1000 Road. Explains that M-16 has three different gas rings that have to be set properly. Because of dirt over time, his weapon jammed. Says that C-7s, military weapons, were slung inside, so grabbed that one. Says Green in clearing for about 45 minutes. Drove past logs on 1000 Road to crossroads. Opened accordion doors for air. Picked up equipment they had left there and continued north. Stopped again because it was so dusty. Saw dents where paint had been peeled back. Saw hits on inside of door and flat tires. He looked at vehicle before incident and none of these marks were here.

Cpl. Senna, other than handling his dog, was also loading magazines down below. A number of hot casings from RCMP M-16s went down his neck and got stuck between his bulletproof vest (a "beast") and his skin. Permanent scars resulted. RW left day before "official surrender". At home, Olfert called. Following call, RW returned to camp. After people in camp left, ERT got back into Bisons and went to camp. Stayed there for two days. Used original plan following Aug. 18 "incident" to take strategic positions ensuring anyone inside couldn't get out and others couldn't get in. He didn't handle exhibits. Shown blue photo book #2. Photo 1421 is field area where they found Red Bison (in right hand side of photo). Other photos of same area. During two day stay at camp, he stayed in field below Sundance circle. Purpose there was to participate in sweep of area. Because of size of area, they used all ERT members to walk from camp east to 1000 Road.

HR - Asks RW how many meetings he had with Supt. Olfert. RW says he saw Olfert every day from Aug. 15 to Sept. 17. Had half a dozen sit-down meetings. Some were a few minutes, a couple were an hour. Took no notes of meetings. Doesn't know if Olfert was making any notes. Says meetings weren't just with him and Olfert. On Aug. 15th had meeting with Olfert, Porter and self at Kamloops SubDivision in Olfert's office. He didn't see any notes being made at that meeting. HR getting mad that he won't say specifically. "It would be great to get a straight answer my lord."

RW says Olfert asked him to do recce at Gustafsen Lake. Didn't deal with how to do it - that was left to Wilby. Gave reasons why he wanted them done. He didn't have plan at time, but later when he did, he made no notes of this plan. When asked if he made any written reports during time there, he says he made two reports. First was Aug. 18th incident of shot being fired during recce - report given to Olfert. RW shows copy of report. JF says they submitted this report in disclosures, but HR disagrees. RW says he never submitted first report to Crown. JF insists Crown did submit it, so HR says he will look into that. RW says he never put an operational plan down on paper. He reiterates members that were with him. He never put anything on paper for them, but doesn't know if other members did. Discussed with Cst. Tassell on phone on Aug. 15th. On Aug. 17th, he had meeting with Tassell in 100 Mile House. None of this was put to paper, "not a word."

That evening, Tassell took him to area. A sniper was with him with a 308 with a scope. Figures Cpl. Callander could fire accurately to 600 yards. HR wonders what his role was for on a recce. RW says that of 12 members, only 5 were available. Callander was one. Callander led team initially though he didn't know the land. HR: "It's like the blind leading the blind." Tassell gave him information during the 1 hour drive of area. They were dropped off at 5 p.m. Spent 3 hours on foot. Went very, very slow. Figures they went about 5 km. Got to site at 8 p.m. It was still light then and they could see for a long way. First went to rock, then to Sundance circle, then back to rock, then to their own camp.

Woke at 5 a.m. Light then. Went to rock, dropped Nordstrum at aspen stand and moved towards camp. Saw person by blue tarp about 250 yards away. They never got closer than that. Saw person wore cammo. Admits he wears glasses for reading, but distances okay. HR suggests that the person could see them as well as they could see him. No further than 200 yards away.

Night before they could see two people and could hear two voices. Heard shot, but didn't see a flash. Turned only head to right to face east. Brought weapon to chest - safety on. Right hand on pistol grip, left hand on forestock. Says bullet went to right at arms length distance away, 5 or 6 feet above. Says he could have hit person in front of tarp. Doesn't think it was peculiar not to see flash. HR suggests it's instinctive to drop to ground like others did. RW says he was headed up the hill - after the shot. RW says it's not in his experience to drop when being fired at.

L/ HR cont'd with Ray Wilby - asks if any action was taken towards cammo man. RW says another member did, but he only heard about it. HR reads from report that Overby saw shooter and aimed M-16 at man's chest by blue tarp. Re: note that all members took cover upon shot being fired, but Wilby says that's not correct - he ran for hill and took cover there. Doesn't know if cammo man by blue structure was shooter. Note says that "all members of ERT are sure the shooter encountered was not the same person seen by the blue structure." RW explains it was a consensus report, but he's not 100% sure himself. Note again says that shot was fired at all members of ERT yet he testified that shot was fired at him. HR points out that under oath, shot was fired at him. "If you tell people that you were shot at, but then qualify it by saying the shot was directed at the team, you may leave a false impression with the jury. Correct?" RW: "That is correct." Says shooter 30 or 40 yards to right. Consensus from group in report said voice was in native dialect. HR points out that he speaks in the first person though he wrote in consensus. RW agrees that it leaves a different impression speaking in the "we" and speaking for himself. Says radio didn't work on rock outcropping to contact Kamloops. Says person he spoke to was "Mike in the radio room."

Re: Sept. 11, when they passed downed tree, he doesn't recall seeing four negotiators there. Says he knew of red truck going for water over radio. Knew truck was blown up. Saw smoke. From 900 yards away, could see black and blue smoke. Gun he heard at time was M-16 though he didn't know that at time. Heard on radio that two males left truck and ran into bush. Somebody earlier mentioned what a good actor Wilby is. Confirms he was in green Bison. Confirms his group fired most of the ammo they had. Each member carried 120 rounds x 5 members. He took C-7 which was automatic. Figures he fired a thousand rounds. Couple of thousand total from green Bison. Never heard of anyone firing long distance using a laser. When he made walk around of Bison later, counted about a dozen marks. No punctures except through lip of open hatch. Figures several hundred rounds were fired from the bush towards Bison. Agrees there was a lot of gunfire. HR suggests that there was much indiscriminate firing. Aside from burn marks on man who had shells go down kevlar vest, there were no injuries. Dog didn't bite anyone "but it wasn't for a lack of trying." RW says he was on top for a minute wrestling tow bar. Didn't weigh bar. Didn't know of tow bar being flipped upside down as other two ERT members were handling that. When doors were lowered, only one person was outside. Says that total amount of time exposed in whole was only a few minutes. Says four could stand up and shoot comfortably in big hatch. One could stand in small hatches.

Re: vehicles seen on morning of Aug. 18 - they didn't hear camp vehicles move, thought they heard dogs barking in the distance.

Didn't see Olfert, Insp. Moulton or Porter make notes in his presence.

HR asks if this was because those in charge didn't want any notes made on these covert missions. RW "I don't know." HR points out that all the other officers came here with notebooks, but Wilby has nothing - Why not? Admits in his 19 years past he has taken notes. Worked serious crime, drugs, property crimes. Admits in drugs he always made notes to go to court. He admits he had a notebook during this incident. "I just didn't make any." Admits this was a big operation. Says he made two reports. HR says they are willsays and that one doesn't have a date on it. One was made on afternoon of Aug. 18th. There is also a taped transcript of him taken Sept. 13th. Three senior officers and team are only people to verify his actions. Says he looked briefly at red Bison, but didn't note marks. Agrees he has a somewhat good overview of events of the operation. Was there for covert probe and gun battle. Agrees he has a general knowledge of negotiations going on. He agrees that Aug. 18th was the first prodding into the camp. HR suggests this was the first change in policy. Wilby agrees that this probe was to gain intelligence. HR wonders why Supt. Olfert would deal with a Constable instead a Sgt. from 100 Mile House. Says he is a commander of ERT and can only be activated by a commissioned officer. Plus he had worked with Olfert on Douglas Lake, Adams Lake and now Gustafsen Lake. Agrees he was involved with other native contacts. HR points out gap between Cst. and Supt. Just because senior officer has to activate ERT, doesn't mean orders can't be passed through Sgt. and Cpl. Wilby doesn't know who else Supt. Olfert could have gone to. He was in command of ERT. Staff Sgt. Porter wouldn't know about this. HR suggests they didn't want written instructions while an operational plan was at work. Knows "green light" means go ahead. HR: "Shoot." Wilby says he never heard "green light" at Gustafsen Lake, nor gave it. He never heard of truck being blown up before. He knows he can shoot to save life. HR says you can't shoot someone that is acting passively - even someone running away from a robbery if they aren't a threat. Yet he heard of red truck being blown up. JF wants it noted that earlier when HR said bullet was 5 or 6 feet above him, Wilby noted only head height. She wants it noted for the record.

ST - Confirms RW was at Gustafsen Lake over a month. Confirms that he was called in because he had experience in standoffs in his jurisdiction before. Says Olfert has only one ERT to draw from with 12 members available on a good day. Confirms he knew area he was going into was supposed to be potentially dangerous. Agrees that in conversation with Tassell, he learned of rock outcropping that they eventually headed for. But in earlier preparations, he had no intelligence of terrain, numbers in the camp, maps, past history of area. But in one hour talk, he says that Olfert only told him what he wanted him to do. They also spoke of other events. Agrees that covert team would be pretty intimidating being an unmarked policeman. Admits being unmarked is part of the probe. In other instances, he is marked as police and when they bust down a door, they yell "Police". Says he wasn't instructed not to take notes, it just happened.

ST asks what he was doing during that month there, but he can't answer specifically every day. "What were you doing there, tying your shoes?" J says that isn't necessary. Agrees he has to account for his actions as a police officer and he was in charge of 12 men. Says that he was in 100 Mile House, other members in Williams Lake because of room availability. ST says that Wilby has only noted Aug. 18 and Sept. 11 and two reports.

When asked about other things he did, he says they were assigned to different locations, but nothing happened. Admits he heard lots of radio transmissions then. Says there were many codes used on radios. ST - "So if I say go to Zulu on Monkey, you'd understand that." Laughter in the gallery. Wilby agrees, though he doesn't remember what codes mean now. He had a map with him noting these code words which referenced roads.

Number of ERT members was just by chance. Some were on holidays. When he went in on covert probe, he says Tassell didn't tell him what he knew. Admits Tassell mentioned rock outcrop. Tassell had forestry map, but didn't see rock outcrop until they got there. When asked how they got there, he said halfway on walk, he saw smoke from camp. He didn't take photo because he didn't know it would be his last time there. He didn't take video either. Says the plan was to come back the next day. It didn't cross his mind at the time.

AB/ ST cont'd with Ray Wilby - Once in the alders, RW says he carried the M-16 at waist level. Upon voice, he turned head and raised weapon. He was dressed in 3 pattern black, brown, green, like military with bulletproof vest underneath. Wearing cammo facepaint and with cammo hat. ST asks him to stand up and demonstrate action with AK-47. He does so. Admits that action was a result of years of training. Agrees that an observer might interpret action as someone moving weapon and admits he would be concerned, but he would have really been concerned if person would have turned with weapon in preparation to fire. Agrees a person doing so like he did might cause concern. When team decided that shot wasn't a warning shot and that it was aimed at his head, Wilby agrees it was a consensus decision. Also agrees in consensus, there may be people who disagree. He had no doubt in his mind that it was a high calibre weapon and that it was aimed at the team. He claims this was an open discussion. Regarding the bullet passing his head, he doesn't know of its trajectory. Agrees it's impressionistic only since he didn't see muzzle flash. Says the only person he saw in the camp that morning was person in front of tarp. He says he never took a photo because it was too dark in the early morning. After pickup, he also told Tassell. Spoke to a number of persons because many asked him about it.

Shortly after, ST suggest that Sgt. Walsh from Ottawa took him on a familiarization flight. Doesn't remember because he took daily flights over area. This was before command centre was set up. First was Aug. 21st with Sgt. Greening. ST says he has note that Sgt. Walsh said Wilby flew with him. Wescam described as camera mounted in aircraft. ST says this flight was on Aug. 22nd. Confirms that afterward, he was up there daily. By Sept. 11th, ST suggests that technology allowed them to see anything on the ground in the open. RW agrees. He says in all these flights, he became very familiar with the ground.

Asked why group was in green Bison, he says Green was assigned to crossroads. He says he was in a number of Bisons before the 11th of Sept. This was first time in green Bison. Admits he was aware that negotiators going in and out of the camp. He also heard that a red truck was going along lakeshore. ST says that "eye in the sky" noted that water jugs were being placed inside truck. Wilby doesn't remember hearing warning on radio that red truck would be moving. When they got the radio report, the rear top hatches on the green Bison were already open so they left them that way. Says that even with hatches open, he could somewhat see over sides at the ground.

Re: hearing shots being fired as they approached red Bison - he didn't see muzzle flash or see anyone. At this time, there wasn't much fire. When they began firing, they did so as a group. Everyone would stand and fire, then go down and reload. Says he never heard transmissions of police snipers firing from across lake at suspected sniper positions. He heard of "Eagle's perch", but was never there. Cpl. Callander was there, but with another team. Says Callander could accurately hit up to 600 yards, but beyond there, it would be with less accuracy. ST suggests that hundreds of rounds were fired by police sniper from 1 km away in general direction of Bisons and RW wouldn't be able to tell if bullets striking Bison were police .308 large calibre weapons being fired from beyond their effective range. "Anything's possible," Wilby replies.

Disagrees that bush was not heavy like forests of Queen Charlotte Islands. When suggested that police were panicking to point that they couldn't move, he says not in his Bison - only in the red one. Admits that though not panicky, he is scared. Admits that when you're scared, you don't think the same way as you calmly do in a courtroom. Admits that under those conditions, a scared person might not spend time looking for individuals. First generation ERT radios used between ERT teams in Bisons. He says that engagement only lasted 45 minutes in Green and ammo was running low. Admits casings littered the floor of the Bison as well as flying out of the vehicle and "pinging" everywhere. Admits that in all this, it's difficult to ascertain where bullets were coming from or who was shooting where. When they first came in, Wilby was standing until they took fire. Then vehicle did one or two laps around, but isn't certain because he was below and was only feeling the movements.

In investigations, he admits that he would separate a group of suspects involved in a shooting so they couldn't put a story together. RW: "Are you saying conspiracy? What are you saying?" ST says that consensus is not the way to handle the investigation. Agrees now that the better way would be to get an officer not involved in the incident to interview the officers separately. ST says that people being human, will often say what everyone else says. RW: "That's possible." Names again the people in the green Bison. When asked if a consensus was taken that day again, he says there wasn't someone saying that this is what happened - only friendly banter. Agrees that he received a lot of information during Sept. 11th that wasn't first hand and that some of what he testified to wasn't necessarily first hand. Doesn't recall anyone telling him that the armour would withstand a 7.62 round. Doesn't remember anyone in Green during Sept. 11th saying "that sounded like a 308."

GW - confirms that RW is a plainclothes investigator. Confirms his team went to Douglas Lake when a plan was made that if arrests had to be made, they would have to make a plan. Confirms that RCMP were coming under attack for not dealing with native roadblocks. Confirms these kind of comments would also come from truck drivers and even from RCMP members. Denies coming under pressure himself, only to come up with a plan to most effectively deal with a recce. Admits that it's not easy being a police officer because public expects you to solve problems.

Confirms that Supt. Olfert is a commissioned officer that spends most of his working day behind a desk and that he has overall command of those at Kamloops SubDivision.

When Olfert comes to Wilby for advice, he "wouldn't recommend" Olfert to go romping through the woods because he isn't trained in ERT operations.

At time of first meeting with Olfert, he knew nothing of Gustafsen Lake except through rumours. Lyle James meant nothing to him. Didn't know Cst. Andrew. Knew Cst. Findley from Fort St. John, but not since then. When he looked at problem, he only looked at it from an ERT point of view. Had done recce on natives before at Douglas Lake, but not on Gustafsen Lake. He couldn't think of any reason why he would not go in there. Agrees he was going to find out who was in there, any weapons etc. Knows Cpl. Callander well and agrees that people have to get along well. He called Callander to invite him along for Aug. 17th recce. Wilby doesn't remember Callander telling him that he went out with Cst. Charlie Andrew the day before. "I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I don't remember the conversation."

   * Day 25: Monday, August 26            * Day 28: Thursday, August 29
   * Day 26: Tuesday, August 27           * Day 29: Friday, August 30 
   * Day 27: Wednesday, August 28