Trial, Week 6: Summary - August 29


WEEK 6: AUGUST 26 - 30, 1996

   * Day 25: Monday, August 26            * Day 28: Thursday, August 29
   * Day 26: Tuesday, August 27           * Day 29: Friday, August 30 
   * Day 27: Wednesday, August 28


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia

THURSDAY, AUGUST 29, 1996 - DAY 28

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

JF - wants to know on what basis GW is going to show Wilby another officer's notes. GW says it is a report saying that the RCMP knew on the 17th of August who was in the camp - he wants to argue that this probe was nothing more than a staged event. J confused what the report is. GW explains that in Cst. Andrew's report, he took Cpl. Callander into lake area and then made further inquiries. He wants to show that Wilby's observations were consistent with Andrew's and that there is no mention of JoJo being in the camp. GW wants to ask if RW saw report. Says that he will make it brief. JF says it's not appropriate to read another officer's notes unless it's already been established that something is inconsistent.

Jones - says it's very unfair to him because this man can clear JoJo and you don't want to hear it.

Ray Wilby and jury back.

GW - Puts Cst. Andrew's continuation report in front of Wilby. RW agrees that report is equivalent of memo outside the RCMP. Report from Aug. 17, 1995 in the evening. GW won't read report, but says it reports how many people were in the camp. RW doesn't remember being told how many were in there. He says fisheries had flown over the camp and had reported that they thought the camp was empty. Got this news prior to going into the bush. Porter in Kamloops told him this over the phone. RW says he told Crown Counsel this. Wilby understands that JoJo has been charged with his attempted murder and understands why it's important to understand who was in the camp. Agrees this was an opportunity to take a look in there. Decision to dress was his choice (to darken face). Agrees that Porter didn't tell him to dress as a Soldier of Fortune. Agrees "Police" wasn't prominently displayed on his uniform. Understands that he would never walk into a bank dressed like that with an assault rifle to cash a cheque because someone may misinterpret his identity. GW suggests that RW hoped no one would see him from the camp and misinterpret their identity. He denies this saying if they were compromised, they would have turned around. GW brings up white supremacists and RW agrees that he has seen them on TV wearing khaki clothing carrying an assault rifle. RW didn't know at time if he looked like a supremacist. When GW asks if he knew that this area was full of rednecks, he asks "In Surrey?" Laughter. Admits later he learned 100 Mile House is full of rednecks. GW: "You looked like anything but a police officer." RW says they wore cammo so they would blend into the bush and intent was to minimize chance of compromise - "We didn't look like a uniformed officer."

Re: three hour hike into area, he doesn't recall Callander mentioning anything of being in area before. RW says that hearing two people in the camp wasn't enough information so they stayed overnight for further surveillance. When asked about hunting, RW says he has seen some hunters wearing cammo like they did.

On morning of Aug. 18th, first thing he saw was horses. He assumed they were hobbled because they weren't going anywhere and standing in a group. He didn't see them move - only assumed they were hobbled. Then saw person standing in front of blue tarp structure (cookhouse) near fire pit.

Admits he wanted to get a little closer but when he saw horses and person, the horses turned around. Agrees horses signalled their presence. Doesn't know that a snort from horses means "who's that?" Does know that native people live with horses and shortly after, heard a native dialect. Heard horses and ten minutes later, team had regrouped by trees and then RW heard dialect. He has worked with native people before and says it sounded like a native dialect. Since case began, he has heard of JoJo. Knows Cst. Russell in Kamloops. Admits JoJo probably came up in conversation with Russell. Doesn't know if JoJo speaks native dialect or if he operates a motor vehicle.

After dialect, person said "Who is it?" Didn't notice any slurring like that of someone drinking alcohol. Says person speaking said it clearly in English. Has never heard JoJo speak, but has heard of his mental disorder through the papers. Heard voice 70 feet to his right. Bang happened on word "it". RW says he had no intention of saying "police". Later in Kamloops, he heard that Percy had called Kamloops radio room, but doesn't know if Percy mentioned describing people in bush. Admits it's possible that person firing may have seen five people in the bush dressed as Soldiers of Fortune and then fired warning shot. "That's very possible." RW interpreted Percy's call as an overall part of the compromise. Admits that people with a complaint call police. Finally admits that Percy's call was a complaint. Agrees that this isn't consistent with someone who has taken a shot at police.

Agrees that he felt mission was a failure. Can say for sure that there was a maximum of four persons in camp based on their observations. Two people seen and two voices assuming they were all different people. Admits this is consistent with Andrew's report of how many people were in the camp. "Close." GW asks him about the use of phone records in police work. He tries to show him a phone record, but JF objects. GW says that RW can interpret this. J agrees that this isn't admissible through this witness. JF asks jury to leave.

Jury leaves. GW says that this is relevant because phone bill shows that someone placed a call from William Ignace's house to a phone number in Hinton, Alberta that Cst. Flemming has identified as Doc Hill's number. J says this isn't the witness to do this through. GW: "Okay, fine, we can bring someone in from BC Tel and do this the long way. That's just fine." J: "I was going to make a suggestion if you let me speak." GW: "Okay". J suggests showing it to the Crown and maybe process of admitting it as evidence can be shortened.

MB/ GW cont'd with Ray Wilby - has a video to show of police re-enactment of the Aug. 18th incident made about a month later. RW says they were dressed the same way as on the 18th and carrying the same weapons. GW says that there is a narrator on the video but he'd rather have Wilby give commentary. J agrees.

Video rolls. RW identifies aerial shot of lake and 1000 Road. RW explains that picture is a fair look at the area and vastness. GW asks LB if video section they want to show is coming up. LB stands up shaking his head, somewhat embarrassed at being put on the spot, "I wish Mr. Wool wouldn't ask me these questions." Video spot found and re-enactment starts. Men seen moving slowly through bush. RW says that this is mostly how they were dressed (though you can't see figures very well).

This video was taken Sept. 19, 1995 during the day. RW explains on morning of Aug. 18th, there was some mist in area and it wasn't as light as in the video. RW admits that in re-enactment, there was no danger and their movements don't reveal the original higher state of awareness or cat-like movements. RW identifies person in rear as Nordstrum. Man then seen running to hill after shot is fired. Other men seen running later through bush. Callander identified and then Nordstrum. Video ends.

When asked if there were three shots fired, RW certain only one shot was fired. On return to 100 Mile House, RW speaks to Porter on phone who tells him to return to Kamloops. He does recall seeing officers on TV on describing his shooting, but not around that time. Doesn't recall police saying that Wilby and team were wearing cammo and carrying assault weapons.

On Aug. 21st, he flew out of Kamloops on a helicopter with Sgt. Greening. Agrees that "it's a noisy machine." Says he is provided with earmuffs with a microphone/speaker to speak with pilot. Says you would have to yell to pilot to be heard if you weren't wearing muffs. Notes that pilot wears helmet. When asked if he could see a hunting rifle by its smoke at 1500 feet, he says he doesn't know. Says he's never had experience of hearing a weapon being fired on ground from 1500 feet so doesn't know it's possible. Remembers Olfert going for a press conference after Aug. 18. Remembers seeing more vehicles in camp when flying above camp after the 18th. Also remembers seeing no police roadblocks on 1000 Road. Agrees that he thought the police should be putting up roadblocks to find out who tried to murder him. Agrees that a roadblock is a form of high alert. Knows that in small towns, police and public get emotional when police are killed or shot at. Agrees that it is a big concern when police are shot at. Admits that area is such large country that anyone could get in and out. Admits that someone from Eastern Canada could have gone in there on the 19th of August, shot at him and on Sept. 11 and then got out undetected. Admits that publicity draws all kinds of people like what GW suggests, "tree huggers and all sorts of terrorists."

Re: Sept. 11 when he was assigned to Green Bison. RW says he was in charge of ERT and military commander was in charge of APC. If he wanted driver to do something, he could request it. Agrees that there were disagreements between military and police of who was in charge, but not at his level - up above. On Sept. 11, he anticipated something would happen with the red pick-up. Says there was command structure way above him. Olfert in charge of operations. Hall in charge of ERT. Other superiors were Insp. Harry, Moulton and ?. Sgt. Gates was the division ERT co-ordinator. If intelligence had picked up anything about red pick-up, Gates would decide whether or not to place people in the Green Bison somewhere.

Says it was quite obvious that something was going to happen. He knew that someone was going to lay down a "diversionary device", but didn't know how it was going to be used. He heard a loud explosion while standing outside. RW says crossroads was an observation position. Some were up front in observation points, in rear, others maintained a defensive position. Military with Bisons. On radio, he never heard of anybody that day attacking the police. In position since Aug. 27th. Not much happened. Agrees that it can be very quiet there. Never thought of it as spooky, but says you are on alert.

From Aug. 18 to Sept. 11, he was never shot at by a native person. Didn't know what explosion was. Heard rapid gunfire from direction of explosion. Says there was increased radio chatter indicating that two persons were heading to the lake and Vancouver ERT was in pursuit. RW sat there.

Says it was his decision whether to go or not. Says he saw short video clip of red truck being blown up in 100 Mile House a few days after event. Doesn't recall seeing dog being killed. RW doesn't know how long they waited there. At time, he didn't know Red Bison had rammed pick-up truck. Says that radio chatter was coming from everyone with people cutting other people off. Agrees that Red Bison took fire before the Green Bison. Doesn't recall testifying that Green Bison took 100 to 200 rounds. His only recollection was that Bison took about a dozen "dings". Says that their constant fire was so loud, that it sounded like a kettle drum. On top of this, there is a police dog which he understands is trained to react to gunfire. GW: "You'd agree that the dog was emotionally challenged." RW: "Yes, he was." "And you weren't going to get any further to find out what was bothering him." "That's right." RW says handler took dog to farthest corner of Bison to keep him away from members.

Agrees that he has been trained in how to testify in court. Agrees that he will speak to Crown before testifying to prepare him. GW notes that yesterday he said members in Red Bison had "eyes as big as pie plates." GW notes that RW didn't tell jury that ERT members were wearing cam stick on their faces turning them green. Agrees it's not anatomically possible for eyes to be that big. GW: "You're a good entertainer." J: "He doesn't hold a candle to you Mr. Wool." Laughter. GW: "Put another mark on the wall - you gotta shut me down sometimes." GW says that Wilby could have said that members in Red Bison just didn't want to come out. GW: "You chose to offer a vivid description." RW: "True." RW admits that he has been told that he comes across well on TV. When asked that in drug squad, he learned to use this well. RW: "I learned this long before then." GW: "You're a smooth talker." RW: "I don't know how to answer that." Admits that he made statement on regional TV and was told after that he came across well. Re: question of how long he was trying to hook up Red Bison, he knew JF wanted to know how much time and RW answered, "it seemed like forever." Agrees that JF didn't ask him to volunteer that phrase. Says his intention wasn't to build it up. GW says that there's a hamburger and there's hamburger with relish. People put on relish for extra taste. RW says it was a spontaneous answer. GW says that RW's prone to spontaneous remarks without the question and suggests that he was exaggerating to make it sound horrendous. RW says that wasn't his intention to exaggerate this for the jury. Says it felt like forever. Re: pulling up next to Red Bison and concern at time that field might be set on fire or that a Molotov cocktail might be used. Doesn't know if this was a dry season. Says his job at the time is to take into account all aspects of situation including danger of fire. Doesn't remember telling anyone of danger of fire. Says the concern was the heat of the fire and the smoke-eating oxygen. Agrees that he would disagree with GW if he suggested that fire was never a concern. GW asks that RW look at a video of APCs on road over lunch so he can testify later on it. J agrees.

L/ (lots of undercover cops are seen lurking around the cafeteria where the defendants eat, trying to overhear conversations. Even with their yuppy pony tails, they still stand out like sore thumbs.)

GW - Explains to jury that Wilby recognizes on video where APCs converge. Video begins. RW recognizes two carriers back to back. Green Bison has rear top hatches open. Red facing west, Green facing east. Another Bison arrives, but RW doesn't know which one it is.

He doesn't know RCMP in that approaching Bison are shooting into bush at this time. Bison pulls up to side, but RW doesn't remember when it pulled up. Bison on south side. It then jockeys around and pulls up to north side facing east. This Bison has its hatches open. Smoke begins to billow, but RW doesn't remember smoke being thrown - says it didn't come from his Bison. He believes that intention of smoke is to protect the APC. He still denies that smoke and fire wasn't a concern. He didn't tell other commanders not to throw smoke. GW suggests that he only told jury of concern for smoke and fire because he exaggerated. He denies this.

At this point, he hadn't seen a soul, but had been firing hundreds of rounds into the bush. He didn't have a target, but claims he knows where the bullets went. He says he was creating a buffer zone in that area. He doesn't know what the other officers in the other Bisons were doing or were firing at, but assumes that they were in as high a state of anxiety as himself. Another Bison comes up from the south. He remembers the other APCs being there, but doesn't remember them actually arriving. Says he was firing as fast as he could in a general area. "Into the bush whichever way I was facing." GW suggests that at least 25 members were firing at the same time. RW doesn't know if they were all firing at the same time. Agrees that it's possible that there were 5 at a time standing up and firing. When asked if he was aware of any other firing coming from the camp, RW replies: "At that time, I couldn't tell what I was doing." In that scene, all you can see is the police firing into the bush. Doesn't know if any of the police rounds hit the other APCs. Admits it was a chaotic scene. GW: "You'd admit that the dog was at a high level of canine stress." RW: "I'd agree." Agrees there isn't much wind that day, but doesn't know if there is any fire with the smoke. When asked about the smoke around them as they fired, RW replies: "I'd say there were a few shots fired into the smoke." Admits he wouldn't know if rounds hitting APC were police bullets or not.

On video shot of camp, RW says he sees a dugout, but admits he doesn't see any people in it. Admits he never heard from an officer that a person was ever standing in a dugout (pit home hole west of camp) with a weapon peering out. He says that from Wescam, he remembers reports of people on rock outcropping with weapons, but never himself of this dugout. He still maintains that he had a concern for fire even if other commanders threw smoke. Says that during this incident, he never was injured himself. Once they hooked up Red Bison, they towed it up 1000 Road. Says there was a lot of dust flying and would expect Red Bison to be dusty after this. Back at HQ, he makes no complaint about the use of smoke. Admits that the first time he mentioned concern of fire was to Crown and jury. GW suggests he could have made an issue of a bad decision made then, and RW agrees he could have. Denies he was exaggerating to the jury - just wanted to convey concerns of the day. Yet he never made an issue of this despite the fact that ERT hold debriefings where he is open with team members. He admits he never made these concerns known to his team members.

On Sept. 12th, he ran into TV crew at 100 Mile House airport in afternoon. Says he received a call from Montague asking him to do an interview with the press. Agrees in the police, he has to be careful about dealing with media before a court case because of the fear of distortion and that usually, members are told to say "No Comment".

Knows that media's interest is not same as police and that they presumably are concerned with selling commercials and air time. When Montague asked, RW asked Olfert. Olfert said that since this was a Kamloops SubDivision matter, a Kamloops SubDivision member should give the interview. Admits he would never give an interview unless he checked with Olfert. He told Montague that he'd have to check with Olfert first. Says "that's not my thing, I'm not trained to do that." Montague and Ward are trained at that sort of thing. Montague wanted to interview him at Bison area out of regular uniform. He and media travelled in RCMP helicopter. GW asks if that isn't unusual for media to travel in an RCMP helicopter. RW says he has never seen that before. When asked if that would be an embarrassment for the network to be working with the police, he says he doesn't know. Doesn't know if this is an issue about taxpayers' money.

GW: "They arrive and begin shooting." (Laughter) "Bad choice of words." When RW mentioned in his interview about natives coming to get him, he meant the natives in the camp. Clarifies that he meant he was being hunted. He can't identify any of the accused that hunted him. When asked about where he was hunted, he says on Aug. 18th. Says he was speaking generally about incidents he knew of. GW notes Sept. 4th alleged incident of officers being stalked through the bush. GW looks for article in book of press clippings. RW doesn't remember particular article. Admits that he was sent out to get members on a road, but doesn't know if the final forensics analysis revealed whether or not this alleged stalking incident ever happened.

Says he is not a violent person and he didn't start incident on Sept. 11th, but if he had to kill, that would have been tragic, but he would have. He never heard of a green light policy to kill natives. He was reacting to a forced confrontation. GW finds article of Sept. 5th in Province. Reads of men hunkering down in bush after being pursued by natives and later rescued by APCs. RW says he never spoke to Victoria ERT members about this, he was only tasked with escorting the Suburbans back into 100 Mile House.

When asked if he put extra flair into his accounts, RW replies: "I was very tired dealing with the whole situation. I may have babbled too much, but as far as the facts, I didn't exaggerate them from what I knew at the time." GW slaps his knee when Wilby admitted he may have babbled on too much, then says to RW, "You babbled too much." RW: "I shouldn't have given the interview - that's how I feel now." RW: "I don't regret what I said, that's what I felt at the time. I regret doing the interview, that's not my thing." Says he wasn't pressured, but he did check to make sure with Olfert that it was a bonafide command. Olfert wanted an ERT member to do interview. RW asked what Olfert wanted him to say and Olfert said, anything you want. When RW asked for the purpose of the interview, Olfert told him to get the point across that this scale of operation was not something the police could handle. With scale of operation and logistics, it was more properly a military exercise.

Denies that his intention was to inflame people against natives. "It all depended on how people took it." GW: "Public opinion was important to the RCMP at this point in the standoff." RW: "It always is." GW suggests that RW wanted to create the impression that people in the camp were terrorists. RW admits he was tired and not himself that day. Says he tries to get along with people and tries to be personable. GW says Wilby doesn't take notes because he can talk and think on his feet. RW: "I try." He again says that he doesn't regret what he said, only giving the interview because that's not what he's trained for.

GW suggests that he exaggerated in the interview about being out in the bush for days and being cold. RW remembers saying on the interview that it was a war and "this is Canada - we're not used to this."

AB/ Without jury - MA asked for transcripts yesterday of witness's testimony, but legal aid is working to rule. He didn't get it. Now he wants today's notes. HR agrees. MA also has problem with disclosures. Learned from Wilby of his officers' role, but has no notes from them. He isn't prepared to cross-examine this witness until he gets these notes. Also, he just received surveyor's notes and has just learned that this surveyor has been called as a witness. He now seeks an order that this witness not be allowed nor any witnesses not on list. Now that he's learned that Hemingway is an expert, Defense has to find their own expert halfway through the trial. ST asks to defer decision until he's had a chance to look over Hemingway's notes. MA happy with that.

LB says he's frustrated because he can't figure out how Hemingway's notes are relevant to this witness. Says MA has had ample amount of disclosures for a long time and has enough to cross-examine now. He can bring back this witness later to further cross him.

HR says LB knows his business well, but he makes no sense when he says we don't need senior officers' notes. To effectively cross-examine him, you have to have a broad picture of what's going on in order to test what he has to say.

ST objects to LB's suggestion that we have had lots of disclosures. They have had disclosures, but 70% of it has come since the trial began. The most chaotic disclosures he's ever seen, with pages missing, page numbers doubled, etc. To suggest that a certified copy of a survey is irrelevant is to suggest that they don't even have to prove the property belongs to Lyle James.

J asks that MA cross-examine as much as possible now and have witness return. MA says that this will break up the trial and will provide no persuasion to those controlling disclosures. He suggests the trial stop until all disclosures are made available.

LB says Porter is trying to compile as much as he can, but says it's not like just asking for a notebook. Olfert has had a death in the family and isn't available. Gates' notes have just been asked for. He was open with MA at start of trial that Crown didn't have full disclosures.

DC asks Wilby to step outside. He does. DC wants to put forward picture of the Kamloops and Victoria ERT members - JF has no objection to it being put forward to the jury. DC also wants to play a video of Wilby's interview on TV, but isn't interested in making it an exhibit because he can't bring the people forward who made it.

LB says that it should only be raised if it is inconsistent with what Wilby has said. DC says he will show it to be inconsistent. GW says this is the same exhibit put forward to Montague at an earlier voirdire to challenge the jury. J says that DC may put it forward as long as he makes it clear to jury and witness that it is edited and he may explain the context. J says that he doesn't want to stop trial. MA says that he will not lead any cross-examination now until he has full disclosures. J fine with that.

Jury and Wilby in.

DC - Re: interview of Sept. 12th. RW says he didn't plan to say anything of an exaggerated nature. Says he didn't interpret anything as a lie that he said. RW says there were two videos taped taking a total of a half an hour in front of the camp. Video played - "You have some natives that are trying to kill you... how do you deal with that, you kill them." DC says that RW said hundreds of rounds had struck the Bison after he had the benefit of walking around and testified that there were maybe a dozen hits. Agrees that what he said was inaccurate. He was tired and angry. When he said only way to deal with them is to kill them, RW said he was trying to imply that that would be the final result if things kept up as they were. Says that Sept. 11 was very traumatic and incident made him angry. He says he felt fear sitting in the armoured vehicle. Agrees that person not sitting in Bison having thousands of rounds fired at them would be terrified too.

On Sept. 11, he doesn't know how many officers had weapons able to fire on Gustafsen Lake, maybe 45 ERT members. 9mm Sig was standard sidearm. Some in ERT had M-16s like those in his Bison. 308 sniper weapons may have been around too. Two C-7s in his APC. One rifle weapon per man. When he stood up to fire, sound got louder, when he sat down, sound got less. Agrees he wouldn't know if there was fire coming from bush at this time. Agrees that Bison is a pretty big unit if you were firing at it.

Statement made Sept. 13th at GIS trailer of Wilby read over and checked by Wilby at time. "At 1:30, became evident that Van ERT was in position to snatch red truck. They waited. Red truck turned south and a moment later they heard explosion. Then radio chatter followed that two males had gone into the bush." DC suggests that RW knew that a snatch was planned for the red truck. RW claims he didn't know that morning that this was the plan. He says that from radio chatter, this was the plan, but claims that he didn't know explosion was from RCMP device until later. Confirms that the Bison crew chief was responsible for that vehicle. His responsibility was to take care of team. Says he could tell crew chief to go somewhere and he would go, but if driver didn't want to, he could question it.

Re: kettle drum sound - DC re-iterates RW's statement on video that being inside the Bison was like being inside "a kettle drum with someone pounding on it." DC suggests that this is quite a flexible version of it because this implies that it is caused by hitting the outside. RW denies this was the intent - only wanted to get across the idea of what it sounded like. Doesn't know if people will embellish stories after time. Agrees that sound of kettle drum was not from hundreds of rounds hitting the outside.

Report says that for entire 45 minutes there, they "received constant and insistent gunfire". DC suggests this sounds like they were hit by thousands of rounds. RW says this is what it sounded like. Admits that when he wasn't firing, there was other gunfire. DC suggests that this other gunfire could have come from other officers on the ground or other APCs. He says the other APCs weren't there most of the time. Admits he has never been in a situation where he has fired thousands of rounds wildly into a treeline. DC says the facts are that he didn't see one person, one muzzle flash, no movement, no target. RW: "I did not." Knows his APC was discharging thousands of semi-automatic rounds. Says that in normal operational setting where a weapon is discharged, GIS would come and seize the weapon and casing. He would be explaining where he fired and where bullets went. "The situation was totally different." There was no attempt to account for shells fired. Not that day, not ever during that operation.

DC shows RW photographs of Kamloops SubDivision ERT with two dogmen and two radio men taken at Gustafsen Lake. Typical Soldier of Fortune shot of members in cammo, carrying assault rifles in manly poses (except the two women in the photo of 20). Says it was probably taken after the Sept. 11th incident. Photo shown to jury. DC notes difference of dress in photo. Wilby wears a floppy jungle hat. DC says that something in the photograph comes out of the photo like "esprit de corps" or camaraderie. RW says that should be and admits this is encouraged. Says that people would work at night together in teams if protecting area. Says some nights flares were fired and admits that stun grenades were used to protect area. DC trying to come up with word to explain the look of what is in the photo. Everyone waiting. J: "Maybe I'll let you think of the word overnight."

Jury confirming that they can have an hour and a half for lunch tomorrow. J says fine.

   * Day 25: Monday, August 26            * Day 28: Thursday, August 29
   * Day 26: Tuesday, August 27           * Day 29: Friday, August 30 
   * Day 27: Wednesday, August 28