Trial, Week 12: Summary - October 8


WEEK 12: OCTOBER 7 - OCTOBER 11, 1996

   * Day 54: Monday, October 7         * Day 57: Thursday, October 10
   * Day 55: Tuesday, October 8        * Day 58: Friday, October 11
   * Day 56: Wednesday, October 9


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Cst. Jim O'Donnell (JO) back on witness stand.

ST - When he was taken to west end of lake on Sept. 10, he was on first helicopter with Jakes, Klassen, Wyton and self. Next load had remainder, making a total of 14. LeCroix from Kelowna and Callander from Kamloops. These two and JO were borrowed from other ERT teams to boost Courtney team.

JO agrees that Callander was a sniper, as were others. Says sniper rifles were airlifted in on the 11th following a subsequent request. JO doesn't know why snipers didn't bring .308s in on the 10th. JO agrees that it is a personal choice for ERT to take weapon of choice. JO doesn't recall what Callander was carrying on the 10th or the 11th. He recalls a resupply for .223 ammo and at same time, .308 ammo. Wyton made that request late on the 11th. "Island Grant" was designation for Courtney team. JO doesn't recall transmission including request for sniper rifles, but he presumes this occurred at same time of ammo request. He recalls around 5:00 or 6:00 p.m., the team broke in two and one team went to meet helicopter to pick up supplies. He presumes sniper weapons came in on helicopter because he saw rifles around following drop. JO recalls that night that LeCroix had his sniper rifle with him when he took a position on a hilltop. He never saw .308 rifles by equipment prior to drop.

On evening of the 10th, there was an observation post (OP) south and west of Perch. On large aerial photo, he shows following: air drop site was at homestead in clearing (old cow camp); there was a an OP 300 yards away from road that heads south out of cow camp (there was also a road going due north and a third going southeast).

Wyton told him that other members were at "nest" (north of cow camp). They went to nest to decide where best to set up video equipment. JO and Klassen had scouted along south side of shore and reported potential sites to Jones and Farrell. Then Wyton showed up. JO agrees that he was with two people sent to set up video, while Wyton was with other 11 members. ST suggests that point of land on south side of lake directly south of big triangle road was ideal, but JO says it wasn't very accessible for resupply. ST suggests that the Perch was the only place that had a roof and had access to resupply. JO says it wasn't his favourite position because he felt the position had been compromised by the shooting of the 11th. But the Perch was the final spot for the equipment.

JO presumes because of what Wyton had told him, all 11 members had gone to nest. JO agrees that nest was not a strategic position - it was just a camp spot. The Perch was the spot decided for the electronic equipment. JO says that there were some positions that were defensive that were manned at night. One was on knoll on south side of dam and another was at top of hill on north side of dam. JO manned these on evening of the 11th. They hadn't been manned on the 10th. These were selected for their defensive nature and ability to observe lakeshore roads. JO says that the people in these positions were in camouflage and undercover and would have been difficult to locate. ST asks if someone were to wash at the docks two km away would be a threat to these two positions. JO: "You wouldn't be able to see the docks from those positions."

On morning of the 11th, he didn't hear any gunfire following the explosion until he saw the Red Bison. He was listening intently. He did hear 10 shots later and then the blue car left. He didn't see swimmers, though he heard on radio that ERT was in pursuit. JO says that he didn't see any shots hit the water at the east end of the lake because of the distance. He did hear these shots as the APC entered into view.

He could hear the APC and see its dust before he actually saw the Bison enter into view. He saw APC first, then he heard the shots, then the blue car turned 180 degrees and departed within seconds of the shots.

The APC stopped momentarily (5-10 seconds) at the shore. JO could see it clearly, but couldn't see anyone standing in the hatches. He heard the shots between seeing the Bison and it stopping. Then Bison headed into bush northbound and he heard the gunfight begin. He says at this point, he hadn't heard any M-16 gunfire that whole day. JO didn't hear any M-16 fire until second Bison arrived and went into bush.

JO agrees that the closest Bison to him was the yellow one. He agrees that if the yellow one had been firing, he would have heard it. JO can't say whether there was fire coming from the yellow Bison or not. He can't recall. The gunfire he saw in the treeline with the muzzle flash occurred between seeing the second and the third Bison arrive. JO says that at the time, radio communications were not desirable because of traffic at the time. ST wonders if anyone in his team had warned the yellow Bison of gunfire from the treeline as it raced eastbound to aid the red Bison. JO doesn't know. He didn't warn the Bison.

JO agrees he was firing distances that he wasn't trained for with the M-16. Says he has fired up to 600 metres with .308, but not with M-16. Agrees he wouldn't be able to say that the shots were accurate. JO is of the opinion that any rifle round can be fatal up to a mile. The first time he was shooting, Jones was watching his rounds land and then JO watched Jones. He saw Creigton and Wyton on the roof of the Perch. On his second firing, no one was checking to see where his rounds were hitting.

He denies that he was firing in the direction of the Bison, but agrees that he was firing in the direction of the camp. He knew there were women and children in there. He knows the camp was within the lethal distance of a mile. He knows that some of his bullets may have gone into the camp.

JO says he observed some of the Wescam videos of the 11th. He watched some yesterday with Crown of what happened after truck hit explosives to point where second Bison arrived. He viewed this before he gave his testimony. He says he wasn't surprised by what he saw and it was the same as he recalled.

ST asks JO to look at his statement from page six to seven. JO does. In statement, he states that firefight happened behind enclave (camp). On map, JO shows that fight actually happened to the right of the camp from his point of view at the Perch. ST says that JO's statement says that the camp and the fight behind it were in a straight line and JO agrees that this is what he said in his statement. JO agrees that if you drew a line between the Perch and the firefight, the enclave would be off the line. He's convinced that the muzzle flashes he saw were in direct line in front of the enclave. ST suggests that perhaps his guess where muzzle flash was coming from was actually to right of enclave and was coming from the same source as the Bisons. JO agrees that had he not gone and looked at the site later, he would have believed that the firefight had happened right behind the camp.

GW - JO was stationed in Chase for about five years. He agrees that he got to know many of the personalities there. He learned that the people there are Shuswap with a distinct language and culture. Agrees that there were ceremonies on the three reserves there.

JO recognizes JoJo Ignace's name and recognized him yesterday and today until JoJo left courtroom about 20 minutes ago holding his stomach. JO agrees that he came to know JoJo because he arrested him at times because of his consumption of alcohol. JO noticed that his intellect is challenged. JO realized quickly that you shouldn't use big words around him because he probably wouldn't understand them. GW suggests that JoJo is gullible. JO doesn't know if he's prone to suggestion or not. He doesn't know if it's easy to mislead him.

JO agrees that sometimes there are funny experiences. One such incident was of JoJo pushing an electric lawnmower across the bridge. JO agrees that JoJo doesn't operate vehicles and he'd be very concerned if he saw this. JoJo was apprehended on the bridge and he claimed he was going to cut hay with it. He was going to a place that didn't have electricity. JO agrees that this was a lighter side of police work.

GW says that he asked JO about JoJo's ability to drive a car because JoJo is being charged with taking a shot and attempting to murder Ray Wilby. GW points out that it's a three hour drive from Chase to Gustafsen Lake. JO has never seen JoJo operate a car before. GW: "You sure wouldn't want to be in a car driven by Joseph Ignace." JO: "That's correct." On 18th of Aug., JO was on holiday, so he wouldn't have been around the Ignace residence in Chase.

JO agrees that he has seen JoJo's record. He agrees that it is against the law to disclose a youth record. JO agrees that criminal records are maintained on CPIC system. He isn't sure if youth records are on it. He agrees that this system is not available to the public. He agrees that it's against the RCMP regulations to disclose these records to the public. JO adds that there are incidents where they might be made public, like when a person is wanted or when it is disclosed publicly in court.

JO says that when he was assigned to Gustafsen Lake, he was aware that there were several people in the camp that he knew of from the Chase area. In his experience, he even sided with some of these people. He says he didn't feel uncomfortable about this, but it adds a personal touch when you know the people involved. Says the "media circus" wasn't there initially, but grew in time. GW suggests that the media line is "if it bleeds, it leads." JO agrees that Gustafsen Lake was high profile.

GW suggests that there were days of dead time. JO disagrees, but agrees that there were many days where there was no shooting at police. Says there were many things happening, like police coming in, negotiators, etc. JO isn't sure if he heard the media refer to the camp members as terrorists.

JO says that JoJo operates at a basic level. He agrees that he never heard reference to these people as terrorists.

On the 11th, he was ordered to fire into the bank of the north shore of the lake. JO has heard of tunnel vision and says that it could happen when under stressful conditions. JO agrees that he was under stress that day because of explosions and gunfire. There was also a sense of the unknown. When GW suggests that the radio communications weren't ideal that day, JO says that they were never ideal.

JO says that yesterday, he didn't watch video of red truck explode. He wanted to see video that would help him explain where was the cloud of blue smoke he saw. JO says that he asked to see the tape. He agrees that he went over the cloud of smoke with the prosecutor and GW explains to the jury that this is a regular thing done all the time with witnesses and prosecutors.

JO was looking for any footage of the blue smoke he saw, but couldn't find it. He watched about ten minutes, from the time of the explosion to when the second Bison arrived on the scene.

MB/ GW cont'd with Cst. O'Donnell - On video, JO never detected blue smoke he was looking for. He had been on ERT for 14 years. Agrees that he understands how gun operates and understands that muzzle flash is a result of combustion of explosives in bullet. JO believes that it is 700 yards to shore from Perch, but agrees that it could be 1,000 yards. GW suggests that distance from Perch to treeline where he saw muzzle flash was 1,500 yards. JO says this might be so. JO agrees that he never saw any people firing. He agrees that muzzle flash would be about the size of an eye, depending on the weapon. He agrees that at 1,500 yards, he wouldn't be able to make out detail of a person's face or of details of a weapon. JO agrees that when he observed muzzle flash, it was between 2:00 and 3:00 p.m. and the sun was shining brightly. Agrees that generally, you don't see a puff of smoke come from modern weapons when they are fired.

He agrees that he was under stress when he heard "explosion" of Bison hitting a tree and saw blue smoke of "diesel and fertilizer" and saw muzzle flashes. Agrees that this incident was an exceptional event in his life.

MA - JO gave an interview to Kiloh on Sept. 14 and later made an statement on Oct. 25. JO says that he didn't get out of the bush until the 12th around 11:00 a.m. He rejoined Kamloops team. He received trauma counselling in spring of '96 by a private psychologist - not RCMP.

JO says he saw muzzle flashes at base of treeline. Two groups of four flashes. In his statement he says that he counted eight muzzle flashes - "the Indians were firing back at us." He didn't mention two groups of four in this statement. In his interview of Sept. 14, he says he saw four or five muzzle flashes from five different areas and then fired his second volley at area where he saw four or five flashes. MA says that he is as mistaken about the muzzle flashes as he was about his explosion and blue smoke from diesel fuel and fertilizer. JO denies this.

MA suggest that JO was firing recklessly when he aimed at treeline. JO says he was aiming at treeline, but agrees that shots could not have been accurate. JO agrees that he never saw muzzle flashes or smoke near blue car before it took off. He agrees he heard gunfire as first Bison arrived on the scene. When video equipment was brought in, he saw equipment stashed 300 yards from cabin. JO never saw scuba diving equipment and wasn't aware of anyone diving in the lake. He never heard of "raven".

On helicopter that came in on the 10th, Rob Klassen, Ian Jakes, Steven LeCroix, Paul Miller, Rob Browning were among people that came in. He has 14 names in his notebook that went in, in total. Ian ?, Grant Wyton, Dennis O'Gorman, Ron ?, Rob Klassen, JO, Hall ?, Glen ?, Chris Knight, Carl ?, Browning, Paul Miller, Steve LeCroix and Mel Callander all came in on the 10th. On the 11th, some of these left and some more came in.

MA says to the J that Defense hasn't got any of the disclosures of these people and wants to delay cross-examination until then. J agrees.

GW - Asks about the Shuswap language. JoJo never needed an interpreter when JO spoke to him. JO never heard JoJo speak Shuswap.

SF - JO says he was in Chase from '91 to Aug. '96. Prior to Chase, he was in Ottawa. JO confirms that he was in Akwesasne. He was involved in Oka as a member of RCMP. He was posted to St. Regis in May of '90 when crisis began. In July of '91, he was stationed in Chase. In Chase area, there are three inhabited reservations. Some others are leased out. SF suggests that three reserves are where the natives live. JO agrees that reservations are set aside to native people. He says that aside from reservations, there is also Crown land and private land.

JO agrees that there is a Department of Indian Affairs. He understands that there are tribal councillors and band councillors. He says that there are elected people that fill these roles and traditional people too. JO agrees that there are people on the reserve that are poor, as are there people that are better off. He agrees that natives hunt and fish for their food. JO has heard of natives being prosecuted for fishing out of season. He has read that Europeans came and settled this land. He understands that the First Nation people were the original people here.

JO has heard natives say that their land extends beyond the reservations and that they are of the land. He had also heard that the people at Gustafsen Lake also said this. SF asks him who is to decide this, but the J says he needn't answer this.

JO is aware of no treaties in B.C. He is not aware that to not have treaties makes occupation of the land illegal. SF tries to bring in Oka as an example of broken treaties and JF objects that this isn't relevant. Wolverine: "Bring in some case law." SF tries another question on Oka and JF objects again. J: "I don't want to hear any more references to Oka." (Looks like J read the Vancouver Sun this morning that said that Gustafsen Lake was worse than Oka.)

JO not aware of any treaties that exist between the Shuswap people and Canada. SF suggests that the people at Gustafsen Lake were stating to the police and media that the police had no jurisdiction to be there because they were on unceded land. JO had heard this. JO agrees that a treaty is an agreement on paper. J: "Whether the witness agrees with this won't assist the jury."

J stands down the witness for later recall. JF wants to make it clear that MA will only cross-examine JO on events related to unseen disclosures. J will not rule on that and if Crown wants to object later, they can deal with it then.

JF - Next witness (#54): Cst. Dennis Joseph O'Gorman (DO) - Courtney Detachment. Sixteen years on force. Was a member of Chilliwack ERT and Courtney ERT for 13 years. In Aug. '95, he was member of Courtney ERT and arrived at Gustafsen Lake on Sept. 6. Team leader is Wyton. He travelled with Milne, Smiley, Klassen, Knight, Rob Sweetland. Carl Vennay was travelling with them as a spare. On the 6th, he was familiarizing himself with Zulu area.

On the 7th, he went to Delta, Tiger and Monkey intersection (at 1029 marker). They were checking vehicles coming in and out of the area. Courtney team was there. DO and Wyton had been assigned to forward observation post, 150 yards south of Tiger. Two other members, Klassen and Horton the dog handler, were 200-250 yards south of them on Monkey. On that day, no one was further south. DO was initially with Milne on Tiger, but then Sweetland later replaced DO. Milne remained there. This was in the morning hours of the 7th.

They received radio report at around 11:00 a.m. from Klassen. From this info, DO contacted Zulu to have helicopter do a flyover of the area.

Ten minutes later, RCMP helicopter flew over. He saw it for a minute and then he lost sight of it because it was flying at low altitude. He later heard seven or eight gunshots in quick succession. They appeared to be heavy calibre weapons as opposed to handguns. It was a matter of seconds from when he saw helicopter and when he heard shots. The sounds came from general area of where helicopter was. Helicopter was several hundred yards south of his location, over the road.

After the shots, he got radio call from Klassen. Then DO and Wyton discussed what to do, resulting in a call for one of the Bisons to come down. He was at Delta when Bison came. Rest of team got in and then went south on Monkey, where they then picked up Klassen and Horton.

On Ex. 5, map with animal names, he points out "D" as being "Delta". From Delta, he figures helicopter was no more than a quarter of an inch south of D on map.

The following days, between 7th and 11th, he was with team initiating a plan to do an equipment installation at the Perch. Idea was to install high resolution video camera. Team job was to provide security to Special I who were installing equipment.

On morning of the 11th, he had just gotten off night shift and went to "birdhouse". He was there alone with a couple of police dogs. He slept for a few hours. Birdhouse was not far from ranch there (the cow camp). On large aerial photo, he shows the birdhouse to be a little north of cow camp, an inch north of the clearing on the photo.

Knight got there later on the 11th, but DO was still sleeping so he doesn't know what he was doing. Lion and Bear was location where observation post was.

He had been aware of a plan to disable a red pickup truck and to arrest any occupants. He had no role in relation to this plan. He was woken up by an explosion, so he turned on his ERT radio to monitor what was happening. He could hear radio traffic for some time. Then he heard gunshots coming from the lake. He could hear shots on the radio, as well as with his naked ear. Shots were from M-16 and from a heavier weapon that he wasn't familiar with. He listened for about an hour. He advised team members to maintain their positions. Wyton came to birdhouse and two of them discussed course of actions. Wyton instructed DO to go Perch with him.

L/ Without jury and DO.

GW - He tells J that a statement may be put in by Crown of an undercover officer that spoke to Sheila Ignace. Statements will relate to OJ and others, which are highly prejudicial. He wants to make the statements inadmissible before the witness Cst. Bouvier is called. JF says that Bouvier is to be called tomorrow.

HR - Regarding this statement, HR is concerned about a line that Sheila said a woman was shot and that her dad (Wolverine) and warriors came and saved the two people in the lake. HR says that this can't be used against Wolverine. His answer is to black it out. It isn't evidentiary and is highly prejudicial.

DC - Not making a formal submission at this point, but says if GW and HR are successful in removing those lines, only one line in three pages will remain, saying "I shot a police officer in a kneecap." DC says that if you remove all the highly ridiculous statements, like you can buy AK-47s at the Salvation Army, then what is admitted will sound credible.

J: "Do you want to address that now Miss Bernard?"

JF - doesn't comment on the J's oversight of her last name. JF would like to address this tomorrow.

Wolverine: "I believe this is entrapment. When you place a police officer in a cell to get a statement, that's entrapment."

J says that we'll start at 9:30 a.m. tomorrow to deal with Crown's position.

ST - Regarding radio tapes to be sent to Defense counsel's own expert. He has an expert now and wants those tapes to be sent to this sound man. Expert concerned about continuity. This analysis will take about seven days and expert would prefer to have the special machine and a copy to look at without an officer present.

DO and jury back.

JF cont'd with Cst. O'Gorman - DO says Wyton, himself, Browning, Milne and O'Donnell remained at the Perch, along with Special I members. Before they got to the Perch there was a lull in the fire which picked up as they got there. This was the first time he was there, so looked around cabin area. Then searched for the gunfire source. Says that for about 20 minutes after the explosion, there was no gunfire and then it increased to a great amount. He was on verandah of cabin looking across the lake. He couldn't see any people. He could see some smoke rising up from trees, which he thought might be gunsmoke.

He heard a lot of M-16 fire. Then heard heavier calibre weapons. He would say that he heard more M-16 fire than the other type. On small aerial photo, he points to where he saw smoke rising. It was behind the point that juts into the north side of the lake, near the eastern fenceline.

From the verandah, he didn't fire his weapon. Other members were firing their M-16s at the cluster of trees where the smoke was coming from. This was following a radio transmission. He changed locations to find a better view. Cst. O'Donnell told DO something, so DO looked over to poplar grove from where he saw smoke rising. He saw puffs of smoke coming from there. Then saw what looked like rain hitting the lake in front of them. Then heard a snap nearby, which he assumed to be a bullet passing. He was on right side of building facing lake and snap came from right about 30 feet away.

He saw a couple of puffs of smoke, then he saw the "raindrops" in the lake, then he heard the snaps, so he went behind the building for cover. Then he went to the roof where he saw puffs of smoke from poplar grove. On small aerial photo, he points to cluster of trees just north of jut. He saw the smoke rising from behind these trees. The "raindrops" were about 125 yards in front of the Perch. The lake was very smooth.

From behind the building, he looked around the corner and didn't see anything. Then he went to roof of Perch. He hadn't discharged his weapon yet. Wyton and Browning joined him on roof. Browning had binoculars, but he couldn't see much. He saw a couple of more puffs of smoke in same cluster of trees. He then laid down fire with his M-16. He did this because of a request from someone in a Bison, though he doesn't remember who. Other members were firing in the same general direction of the encampment. He fired 90 rounds. At the time, he figured distance was 1,000 yards. The next day, he checked distance with a range finder to the cluster of trees and saw it was actually 1,400 metres.

He describes laser range finder as binoculars in which you press a button and it gives you the range.

When he was firing, he wasn't aware of where bullets were landing. An hour after getting to Perch, he saw Bisons for the first time. They were coming out of the bush and were in view for about a minute. He then heard cheering coming from the camp area. "The type of cheering you might hear at a football game."

On Sept. 12, as he was walking from Lion and Bear observation post, he was with Wyton, Garth Patterson the dog handler, Milne and Callander. His team was the only team to remain in close proximity to the camp that night. They maintained a stronghold on a raised piece of land. They were walking to Perch to set up an observation point. They were also going to set up another point further east with a better view of the camp area.

Inside the building, they opened up the large windows. There was a table inside, so he set up his spotting scope there. He then saw a person with his naked eye walking down from the camp. He then watched person through the scope. He could see it was a male. He thought it was a white male wearing cammo clothing - a smock and pants. He appeared to have a rifle over his shoulder and a bandanna around his long hair. Average height and build. Can't say what age. He could see barrel sticking up over shoulder, but can't say over which shoulder it was slung. Man was walking towards him and he was seeing man's front and left face. Then person turned and walked parallel and could see man's left side.

On small aerial photo, he traces man's route. With reference to the large triangle of roads, man was walking down right leg and then walked parallel to shore. DO and Wyton discussed what man might be doing. Wyton then called Ops Commander. Ops Commander gave him "green light" to shoot this person. ST says that only Wyton could answer what he thought of "green light" order and as Wyton is not on the witness list, DO can't answer for him. JF rephrases question. DO says that personally, based on events of the previous day and the fact that man was armed, in cammo and walking west towards other members, he thought the man was a threat. DO says that previous events included shooting at a helicopter and the shooting of Molendyk.

DO says there were ERT members at Lion and Bear, at least 1,000 metres away from where the person was. DO speculates that camp members had shot before. HR objects that this is speculation and the jury has heard all the past events before. J agrees and says that the jury has heard all this before. HR says that DO has mentioned events before and now they're trying to create rationalization for shooting someone. J says that he'll have to hear the evidence in the absence of the jury.

Jury leaves and J declares this a voirdire.

DO says his concern with person walking down lake was that this person was going to walk down lake and shoot at officers, based on past events. J isn't surprised by this answer. J says that the issue of excessive force by the police requires that we know what the grounds were that led police to make the decisions they did. HR says that JF is buttressing the witness's testimony to justify the shooting of the man. The Criminal Code is clear about the grounds necessary. HR will save his comments for his cross-examination. J will allow the question and the answer.

Jury back.

DO says that in the context of other shootings the previous days, his concern was for the officers that were at the position 1,000 metres away and he was concerned that man would shoot those officers.

DO recognized that Kembel was giving the green light. DO says the green light didn't go to him, but went to Wyton. Following order, he set up gun. He went out and checked his range finder on person's left shoulder. It said 1,140 metres. He discussed calibrations and set 10 power scope. He then fired. He saw bullet fell short about six to ten feet. Bullet landed south of this person. He could see a little puff of dust. Person ran and DO lost sight of person. DO asked F1 (Wescam) to locate person. DO told Wyton that he lost sight of person. F1 called in location and Wyton took rifle from DO. DO says Wyton fired two more shots, but DO couldn't see what Wyton would have been firing at. He looked in area that he believed person to be in, but saw nothing. He never saw that person again that day. Only he and Wyton shot that day. (The lucky defendant who was almost killed by DO is heard muttering, "I can't believe this fag almost killed me.")

On the 18th, the day after everyone left the camp, he was in camp area doing a grid search for evidence. He found two loaded AK-47 clips near a freshly bowled over tree. He marked clips with yellow tape and never touched them. Says that clips were in the general area of clearing north of smaller triangle of paths.

HR - Shooting took place at 8:30 a.m. on Sept. 12. The light was good. HR reads from statement where he said he saw a white male walking west on road along Gustafsen Lake wearing cammo gear and bandanna - "they got authorization to shoot person." DO says that it was Wyton that got authorization. HR continues to read statement that DO thought he later saw a white male on TV that he thought might be the male. DO says that the bullet landed dead centre of man, six to ten feet short of him. JF wants to make it clear that HR is reading a Crown statement - a Will Say. HR says that the Crown's statement should be accurate. DO clarifies that the bullet didn't land between man's legs, but dead centre and short.

DO says that he plotted several distances off the person. 1,180 metres was last plotting. He had never fired that far before, so discussed with others how to calibrate shot. Range table only went to 600 metres, so they had to guesstimate. He consulted with Callander and Milne. Not Wyton. Total setup time took about a minute. HR asks then that this wasn't a spur of the moment thing. "I calibrated to the best of my ability to shoot the person." HR: "Yes, and you did a very good job of it." Final reading he took was 1,180 metres.

The man was at least a kilometre away from officers at Lion and Bear. DO says he could have contacted them on the radio. There was also another group of officers setting up on Monkey who were at least a couple of kilometres away. He agrees he could have been in radio contact with them too. He agrees that the radio wasn't jammed that day on the 12th.

On the 11th, the first "massive gunfire" was about 40 minutes long and then a second mass of gunfire for about another 40 minutes. DO agrees that most of the gunfire was from M-16s, interspaced with the occasional heavier fire. Guesses that hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds were fired. He himself fired 90 rounds at a target 1,400 metres away. Even at that distance, he says that he wouldn't like to be fired on at that distance. HR suggests he would be in more danger driving on the freeway in Surrey. DO agrees that the M-16 would be ineffective at that range "unless a bullet accidentally shot you."

AB/ HR cont'd with Cst. O'Gorman - DO confirms he made a witness statement that he gave to Wyton, but he doesn't know where it went from there. DO checks statement and agrees that the statement didn't reflect the Sept. 12th shooting. HR wonders why statement didn't include the 12th shooting. DO was asked only to provide a statement regarding the 11th. HR wonders if there isn't a rule that officers record all use of their weapons. DO says that he wasn't requested to make a report. He would normally let his superior know. This is the first time he ever fired his weapon without filing a report. He did tell Kembel of what happened, but Kembel never asked for a report on it. DO says that Wyton was the team leader, so that's why Wyton asked Kembel to make the shot. DO agrees that Wyton was as good a shot as him, but Wyton told DO to make the shot. HR says that he didn't have to make the shot. DO says that he didn't even have to go to Gustafsen Lake, but he did. He agrees that Wyton could have made the shot too.

It was clear to DO that he had missed his shot. "It was clear that Wyton missed his shot too because there was no target for him." DO speculates that Wyton may have shot to keep man's head down, but he doesn't know. DO doesn't recall talking about hitting the man and retrieving the body. He only heard Callander mention that DO had fired short. DO says he lost perspective of where the man was. He pointed the spotting scope at the area while Wyton shot, but DO saw nothing.

Wyton left DO there alone at Perch so Wyton and others could set up other observation post (OP). This shot took place around 8:30 a.m. He doesn't recall contacting officers at Monkey and Lion. About 15 minutes later, he heard that the man was gone. He agrees that he never contacted officers to warn them that the sniper was gone and to watch out. DO says that man in the plane made the warning by saying that the man was gone. HR wonders why DO didn't warn the officers to stand to because there was a sniper coming to hunt them down. DO says that neither he nor Wyton nor others made this call.

DO agrees that this was a unique experience which he will remember for the rest of his life.

DO says that the M-16 creates puffs of smoke when fired. He says muzzle flash is only visible at nighttime. DO says there was a lot of smoke in the woods during the gunfight. The explosion woke him up as he was sleeping in the trees. He didn't know what the explosion was. He didn't see any smoke. Figures that explosion was maybe three kilometres away. He didn't hear any shots then. Ten to fifteen minutes later, he heard shots. When O'Donavan told DO that they were taking fire, his back was to the lake. HR wonders why he would have to be told that they were taking fire. DO says that he wouldn't know because there was so much gunfire going on. Then he turned and saw the raindrops in the lake.

DO says that he has never been under artillery fire.

DO remembers hearing Kembel saying he wanted Bison out of area after they became disabled. He doesn't recall Kembel tell Bison this before they were disabled. DO hadn't been in the Bison at all at this point except on the 7th. He had got a ride on the 12th.

He made the shot because he was asked by Wyton. Kembel ordered the shot. He agrees that he never got on the radio to warn the people of this man that DO thought was threatening officers.

MA - DO says he made a written statement some days after this event, but can't recall which date. MA says that Defense has been given a Will Say.

DO says he was interviewed by Crown in Nov. '95. He was not interviewed by senior police investigators. He faxed Crown his notes later. MA shows him five pages and DO confirms this is all he sent. There was also a map of the area he made. MA looks at this. It's a "no-shoot" map. DO says he got it at Command Post on afternoon of the 12th. He drew the boundaries in purple on his own map.

DO confirms that the person he shot at was in the no-shoot zone.

He was told a half hour later on the radio by Cpl. German that there was a no-shoot zone in effect. Global Positioning System (GPS) coordinates were given, but DO couldn't visualize where the zone was. He later realized where boundaries were. He got off helicopter at noon on the 12th and Kembel approached him. They spoke briefly about shooting. He spoke many times later with Kembel.

Spoke to police force psychologist three weeks later. Jack Webster may have been his name. (It was Mike.) When he returned to 100 Mile House, Sgt. Gates spoke to him and Wyton. Gates asked if DO knew about the no-shoot zone. DO told him that at the time of shot, he wasn't aware of the zone.

DO shows on small aerial photo where he saw the puffs of smoke on the 11th. He says that they were at base of alders which you can't see on the photo. He points to where Perch would be. He says that he thinks there was a foxhole by the docks and another by the camp, but he never saw these.

DO confirms that he fired at man on the 12th not because he feared for his own life, but for the officers at the west end of the lake. He confirms this is by the dam. On his map, this area high up above dam is OP 2. MA suggests that distance from man to dam is more like 2 kilometres away. DO agrees with this. Also agrees that man could not see officers at dam, officers north of dam, nor officers at Perch. DO agrees that man walked off road and towards the lake.

DO confirms that F1 and F2 were both fixed wing airplanes. On the 11th, at one point, DO recalls two planes flying at the same time. Confirms that man was 1,180 metres away. Says that ERT fires M-16s up to 500 metres away and can hit a target 12 inches across. Has heard of military competitions where they fire .308s at targets 1,000 metres away.

On the 11th, he didn't join his group in their first firing. He joined in second volley. MA suggests that by then the APCs had released smoke. DO wasn't aware that the APCs had done this.

MA shows DO a photo he took last week and suggests that this is Gustafsen Lake. DO is not sure, but willing to believe that. Second photo he does recognize as Gustafsen Lake. In this photo, he can identify foxhole as that being near trees where he saw puffs of smoke. He looked through Brown's binoculars, but they were not very good optics. MA suggests that the smoke that DO saw was APC smoke that had drifted over to the trees. DO doesn't think so. Smoke he saw was at base of alder trees at the front.

MA wants his photo made an exhibit. JF wants it only marked for identification. J asks if DO can say that notes on picture accurately portray what he knows to be true. DO says it does. J makes it exhibit.

MA shows him picture of trees with holes in them. DO remembers seeing trees with holes in them, though he doesn't remember these specific trees. He does remember seeing a limb 10 feet up that had a hole in it. He also saw an alder with holes in it.

He isn't aware of police counting the bullet holes in the trees and he knows that he didn't count them.

DO recalls seeing a tree that had been knocked down - it had a big gash taken out of it. He agrees that the gash was similar to those seen in photos of standing trees.

MA asks that three photos be made next exhibits. J looks at them. Crown takes no position. J makes them exhibits.

DO got to lake Sept. 6. He was part of "Operation Eagle Plan" to set up electronic equipment. Part of the plan was to shoot the horses, but that was rejected once they got to the site. They were also to supply propane for Special I quiet generator. DO and Wyton made the plan under supervision of Supt. Hall. Hall gave them the task on the 8th to bring in the equipment.

ST - When ERT was in field, they had radios. DO hadn't heard on the radio that camp members were washing at the dock. He had heard that people would go to the lake and a stream to get water. ST suggests it's easier to get water from a dock and DO agrees. ST suggests that there had never been any reports of camp persons walking west on road. DO says that on the 10th, a native male wearing a red shirt was spotted on the mesa. Smiley and Sweetland were in a position overlooking the mesa and were reporting to DO of man's movements. This took place in the afternoon. DO told officers to keep an eye on the man. DO has OP1 and OP2 marked in notebook. DO confirms that OP2 is overlooking an area from the dam to south of the dam. DO says that originally, OP2 referred to a single OP. On the night of the 11th, a second OP was created nearby so that afterwards, OP2 actually referred to two OPs in the same area.

They were dropped off by helicopter and had to walk in quite a distance. They were dropped off near the "birdhouse". Team cleared the birdhouse area first before the helicopter landed with the Special I equipment. Once birdhouse was established, they wanted to set up OPs by OP2 to maintain 24-hour watch on routes in. This is where Smiley and Sweetland were sent. DO referred to them as "Chip and Dale", so this is what he referred to them as. He says that they didn't keep radio log, but agrees that someone was. ST is wondering why there is no communications from OP2 talking about people coming out of the bush. ST says he would like to narrow it down when these transmissions were made.

J: "We'll narrow it down tomorrow."

   * Day 54: Monday, October 7         * Day 57: Thursday, October 10
   * Day 55: Tuesday, October 8        * Day 58: Friday, October 11
   * Day 56: Wednesday, October 9