Trial, Week 12: Summary - October 9


WEEK 12: OCTOBER 7 - OCTOBER 11, 1996

   * Day 54: Monday, October 7         * Day 57: Thursday, October 10
   * Day 55: Tuesday, October 8        * Day 58: Friday, October 11
   * Day 56: Wednesday, October 9


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

GW - seeks to have portions removed of Cst. Bouvier's three pages of Sheila Ignace's testimony. He wants all removed except the line that says that she shot at officer's kneecaps. The line he especially wants removed is a line that says that OJ and "Tim" left the blown-up truck and shot at police. Does the prejudicial value outweigh the probative value? GW not convinced that even with the J's warning to discount it, that the jury will still have it in their mind. Plus, OJ can't call Sheila as a witness.

J says that what GW is saying is that Sheila cannot give evidence against other people.

GW agrees. Wants whole passage removed. J wonders about DC's request to leave passage in to give Sheila's line context. GW suggests that DC can refer to unidentified people when he deals with this. GW wants only to leave what is relevant to Sheila.

HR notes that J didn't allow three pages of testimony at an earlier voirdire in June - he only allowed portions regarding Sheila. Specifically, he would want references to Wolverine and her dad to be deleted.

JF says that in the previous voirdire the Crown only wanted page 1, 2, and the top of page 3. The rest was forgotten about because of the Charter application.

HR prefers to have entire sentences removed. He says that it's a myth that you can tell a jury to "disabuse its mind" to forget certain things. What court can do is remove the things instead - edit things that have no evidentiary value and are only prejudicial. HR notes that the Crown has fired its only bolt concerning identification. There is only one person that identified Wolverine and that was under very difficult conditions. This kind of evidence is very dangerous and can tip things easily even if the J tells the jury to disregard it.

DC - If the statement is edited, then it changes it in Sheila's case. It is obviously a creation of a young girl's fantasy. If after 12 hours with a cell plant the only thing that comes out is that she shot a police officer in the kneecap, and no officer was ever shot in a kneecap, then it just sounds ridiculous. Her comment of a "Tim" and a dozen other references is so unreliable that it should not be admitted. Evidence has to pass a threshold of reliability and it doesn't pass this. DC says that he's in a position of concern because he can't cross-examine about absurd things, like being able to get AK-47s from the Salvation Army if you ask for them, because that is in a portion that has already been ruled inadmissible. DC doesn't want to argue with other Defense because he agrees with them. He takes no position on editing.

J wants to understand DC's position clearly. J leaves DC to ponder it. DC is not against editing, but is concerned with prejudicial value.

JF - says that statement shouldn't be vetted unless there is a direct prejudicial effect against a specific person. JF says that a lot of what is in the statement will come out in future evidence anyway. Suniva and OJ being in a truck will come out in Suniva's radio transcription. The line that Wolverine and warriors came out and saved them is corroborated with Bidwell's ID of Wolverine as the person they were shooting. J says that this identification is the thing that troubles him the most. JF says that there is probative value in this at the end of the day. It's not enough for the jury to know that there was shooting that day. They have to know who was shooting too.

JF says that DC can cross-examine the witness regarding the fantasies of a young girl, but if statement is edited, then DC can't cross properly.

To eliminate references to OJ and Wolverine would seriously reduce her testimony. JF wants to let the jury decide which comments are correct or not. She questions HR's notion that a jury can't do that and says the jury has to be allowed to decide. JF refers to a case where a judge said that if we can't have confidence in a jury, then the basis of the justice system has to be questioned.

J says that this could be raised at anytime, but his concern is that named persons in the statement could be very prejudicial. JF claims the probative value outweighs the prejudicial.

GW clarifies that OJ's fingerprint was not found on a rifle stalk, it was on a piece of tape. He wants references to OJ firing back and Suniva carrying a bomb in her hand removed.

HR says that JF's reading of a judge's comments ignores that courts edit all the time. HR says that the evidence against Wolverine is very frail, with only one witness. J doesn't want to get into this now, but agrees that this is a very live issue. HR says that old common law states that you can edit evidence. It's only in modern law, since the new Charter of Rights has come in, that all evidence is put forth and it's sorted out later. This isn't a charter application.

HR says that the J has said that Wolverine's comments on international law don't apply here. HR says that JF's comments on domestic law don't apply here and evidence is vetted all the time. J agrees.

DC says that Sheila obviously doesn't know what's going on and her evidence is unreliable. He doesn't want to oppose editing, but if it is edited, it will be highly prejudicial. He would like whole statement made inadmissible. DC says the only option is severance and that is not a good idea.

J would like to ponder this and start with the next witness. J says he will go over proposed changes with Counsel and may seek help from them before that witness (Cst. Bouvier) is called.

Jury in. Cst. Dennis O'Gorman (DO) back on witness stand.

ST - Ex. 5 of map with animal names is shown to DO. DO says that Monkey and Bear are difficult to see on large aerial photo. Monkey runs on western edge of large open space. Just north of photo, Monkey runs into intersection with Panther. DO believes that there were police at this intersection. DO was later posted to Monkey and Panther following the 12th, but can't recall date. ST suggests that a good observation area there would be overlooking large field, but DO doesn't recall being able to see field from the observation post at Monkey and Panther.

Where Monkey meets Lion, there was initially no observation post there, but later on, there was. Bear came off Lion and meandered through woods to Perch.

OP2 was established on 10th after "nest" and "birdhouse" were secured. Sweetland and Smiley were sent to OP2, the intersection of Bear and Lion, to watch their flank. ST reads from a transmission where Grant gives a location. DO and Grant replaced Sweetland and Smiley and remained there until dark. At 17:35 hours, he and Grant saw horses come down road and stop right in front of OP2. Grant radioed this in.

Earlier, at around 2:00 p.m., Smiley and Sweetland radioed DO about man on mesa because they couldn't call Zulu themselves. DO says that F2 often relayed messages. There is a radio transmission of armed male, with a red shirt, on Lion towards camp. DO says that Smiley later showed DO where they observed male. Smiley says man emerged out of trees on mesa above them, walked a little and then disappeared. He spoke to Smiley about this around 2:00 p.m. when DO and Wyton replaced Smiley and Sweetland. ST sees that this wasn't noted in DO's notes. DO said he was busy setting up camp.

DO agrees he took shot on 12th because of discussion he had with Wyton and order given by Zulu. ST suggests that there isn't a single transmission indicating that man was heading towards other officers at west end of lake. Wyton never said he asked for permission to shoot because he feared for members at OP2. ST suggests that it was F2 that spotted man and told snipers to make life uncomfortable for him and then DO looked towards man. DO doesn't recall it. DO says that when he was talking with Wyton, Callander was looking at his charts to assist setting up the scope. Callander was in room, so he may have overheard conversation with Wyton.

DO told Wyton that he saw man coming out of camp. Wyton said "that guy is coming out to hunt us." DO said, "Yeah, that's probably right." This is when they sought permission to shoot. ST suggests that seeing a man with a rifle meant to him that a man was coming to hunt him. DO: "Well, of course." DO says that he had this in mind before F2's comments to make the man's day unpleasant.

ST wonders if DO was to stalk someone, would he do it in full view with an airplane flying overhead and heading for a dock. DO says he doesn't know what the man was thinking. DO doesn't believe that anyone knew about location of OP2 nor that there was anyone at the Perch. DO says that following the 11th, he wasn't going to take the chance of letting the man hunt them. DO claims he wasn't feeling animosity towards the camp - just fear of the unknown.

DO agrees that he was aiming for the man's torso. ST suggests this is for the highest possibility of killing the man. DO: "The highest possibility of hitting him." DO agrees that when Wyton was firing, man was prone on the ground.

There is a radio call from Dennis to F2. "Head movement, east of Perch, any members." DO doesn't recall this. ST reads transmissions that follow man along field and towards dock. DO doesn't recall seeing man after he went down.

DO agrees that the .308 rifle was the best weapon he had to make the shot. ST wonders if, as a peace officer, isn't he obliged to use the least amount of force necessary. He agrees. ST wonders if DO only wanted to make man go back to camp, couldn't he just spray area with M-16. DO agrees, but at the time, that's not what he wanted to do. DO didn't talk to OP2 to warn them that there might be someone stalking them. ST suggests that he nor anyone didn't warn OP2 because that was never his or Wyton's concern in the first place. DO: "That's, uh, that's not true." DO claims that OP2 would have been listening to the radio transmissions too.

DO agrees that when he was looking at the man, he was using the spotting scope. The binoculars that Callander was using were better than the rifle scope. When DO, Wyton and Callander were looking at male, DO thought male was Caucasian. He doesn't recall agreeing with Callander's observation that man was native. DO agrees that at the distance, all he could observe was the clothing and the rifle. He doesn't specifically remember seeing through the spotting scope the man taking off his jacket.

Later on the 12th, he watched the Wescam video in 100 Mile House. He later watched it again on Monday in the Crown office. He thought the video was of very poor quality. His view was much better. ST says that the video and his testimony are all the jury has to go on. He says that the binoculars weren't high power, but high quality optics. ST suggests that he should have been able to tell whether the person was native or Caucasian. DO didn't know for sure at the time. ST suggests that he could be unsure with the rest of his evidence. DO says that he has indicated when he was unsure of his evidence.

Regarding the "raindrops" he saw hitting the lake, ST suggests that these were of bullets that had lost their effective speed. DO doesn't know. Raindrops were about 100-150 feet away. ST suggests that this happened at 2:30 p.m., but DO doesn't think so. He believes that he was at the birdhouse when he heard that the APC was disabled. DO agrees that the radio was the only link he had to know what was going on.

DO agrees that he has talked to other members about events of Gustafsen Lake. Sgt. Gates played the video of the sniper episode for DO later in the day. DO doesn't believe that Gates requested DO to watch it - DO was very interested to see it himself. He doesn't recall any conversation following this. Before watching the video, Gates and DO talked about the shot. He ate and sorted out equipment before returning to watch video.

MB/ ST cont'd with Cst. O'Gorman - Sgt. Gates asked DO and Wyton if they felt justified in taking the shot. "I felt comfortable taking the shot. I didn't think I was doing anything illegal." He says the tactical decision was made by Kembel and if he had said don't shoot, he wouldn't have. DO agrees he had the justification to shoot even prior to the permission, as per the Criminal Code. DO says he only needed the tactical authority to make the shot. DO says that based on the events of the previous day, he felt that the man was coming out to hunt them.

On the 12th, 30 minutes after shot, F2 gave Global Positioning System (GPS) of no-shoot zone, but it didn't mean anything to him at time. Person in F2 was Cpl. German. "Island" refers to their position at the Perch. ST reads a transmission of the coordinates designating the no-shoot zone. DO didn't have a map other than the simple one like the exhibit map with the animal names on it. At the Perch, when the coordinates were given, they talked amongst themselves questioning what this no-shoot zone was. DO: "I'd question the rationale of someone like Insp. Kembel to give a green light to shoot someone in a no-shoot zone." "We questioned why we weren't told about it (the no-shoot zone)." "They indicated that they simply didn't get the information to the people in the field which was a common thing."

DO says Wyton had a heated discussion with Gates about information from 100 Mile House not getting to the people in the field. DO says that Wyton and Gates are friends and were speaking frankly with each other. The number one theme was of the no-shoot zone and the shot taken there.

Later in the afternoon, he viewed video footage to see what occurred. "I wanted to see what happened when I made the shot." ST suggests that it's pretty easy to see that the man was in the no-shoot zone. DO: "There's no question about that...he was in the no-shoot zone." ST wonders why Gates showed him the video. DO says he took it upon himself to watch it. DO says members were free to watch videos unsupervised. For instance, he had Smiley make up 3"x5" pictures from the video to view particular areas. When preparing Operation Eagle Plan, he was interested in area around "birdhouse" and "nest".

Following the 12th and the heated discussion, ST suggests that this event would warrant an investigation. DO agrees. DO agrees that he filled out a report regarding the 11th, but says he wasn't aware of a CPIC message to report on the 12th. He spoke to Kembel and Gates, but not as part of a formal investigation. He felt at the time that an administrative review would be necessary, but he felt it should happen a couple of weeks after events were completed at Gustafsen Lake.

He was surprised that no one asked for a formal statement because he was expecting someone to come and talk to him about it. ST says that Defense has a Will Say and was wondering what that was based on. DO says he spoke to JF last year and as he spoke, she was typing in her computer. He spoke in detail about the 12th. He agrees that in Nov. of '95, there were plenty of investigators around that could have taken his statement. He agrees that he has refreshed his memory many times from statements and that a statement is better made earlier to an event than later. He didn't care one way or another if he made a statement or not.

Cpl. O'Donnell made observations on the 11th to DO that they were being fired on. That's when he saw puffs of smoke at the base of the alders across the lake. DO has seen stun grenades and smoke grenades. He says puffs of smoke he saw weren't like smoke grenades. He doesn't recall hearing any stun grenades being thrown when he was at the Perch. Says that there is a magnesium flash that is very bright that even in daylight can upset your vision. There is also smoke. He says that stun grenades they use have only one flash. ST suggests that Eye in the Sky could have helped identify locations of people in the alders.

ST suggests that raindrops DO saw were .223 rounds being fired from Bisons and landing in the lake. The timing of the raindrops is synonymous with when massive gunfire was laid down by M-16s and C-7s.

GW - DO says the options to neutralize the horses was either to shoot them or corral them. This was discussed on the 8th. DO says that it was the Courtney team that discussed this. DO agrees that it was a serious discussion. The purpose was to prevent the people in the camp from moving around. Agrees that plan was to kill or corral the horses. He agrees that a horse owner would be upset, but says idea wasn't to demoralize the camp. DO says it wasn't his idea. DO says he didn't think at the time that it would demoralize the camp, but realizes now that that would likely have happened. GW suggests that rationale of plan was to put fear into camp. DO doesn't think this was the rationale of the plan, but he doesn't know what the author of the plan's rationale was. They had considered bringing in feed to lure the horses to the nest.

DO later learned that a dog had been killed. GW suggests that the purpose of the weapons they had were to shoot the members of the camp. DO: "I was prepared to use my weapon, but I wasn't itching to use it."

DC - DO says that they had considered shooting the horses from across the lake, but decided not to because they didn't want to reveal their position. Once he heard idea, he spoke to armourer about shooting across the lake at horses. The best shot he could make was 800-1200 metres across the lake. He considered using a silenced weapon, but he couldn't get enough range with a silencer.

DO had been getting information at briefings that the camp was using horses to get supplies through the gaps in the perimeter. "There was no doubt in my mind that the area was never really contained."

DO agrees that RCMP are allowed to protect themselves by shooting to protect self of others. DO agrees that the Criminal Code allows all people to do the same and the only difference with police is that they are allowed to carry weapons. He notes that police are more likely to get into situations that this might happen. DC suggests that the tactical decision of whether to shoot someone was based upon circumstances, like whether a mass surrender is imminent. DO agrees. He also agrees that if the man (on the 12th) had shouldered the weapon and pointed it at team, they wouldn't have asked permission, they would have just fired. DC suggests the tactical decision to shoot the man was simply to decide if it was an opportune time to kill the man. DO doesn't know what Kembel's rationale was.

DC suggests that the man was armed in self-defense because the day before, the dog had been killed, a truck blown up, and a thousand rounds had been fired. DO says that this is speculative. DC points out that his thinking that the man was going to hunt them was speculative. DO agrees that he heard before that people had gone to the docks to wash, but had never seen them at the dock himself.

DO says that he had a back view of the man and DC says that he has trouble with this. DC wants to play a video after break. J wants to give answer to submissions. Jury and O'Gorman stood down.

J outlines the submissions of DC, GW, HR and the Crown (JF). J says this isn't a closed issue and will take comments from Counsel with help editing. Re: statement of OJ and Tim in truck. J will edit it following the two people going into the bush, so that the witness will say that two unidentified people shot back. Reference to Suniva holding a bomb in her hand before being shot will be changed to say that she had an object in her hand. Reference to line with Wolverine being powerful will be deleted. Line that Wolverine and warriors saved them will delete name.

J says that following cross, if DC has a problem with this, he can revisit the issue.

HR wants reference that Wolverine was in the camp to be stricken until the Crown proves he was in there.

ST suggests that by removing people from list, his clients may appear to be the people. J disagrees with that. ST just wants it reflected in the record.

GW is concerned that if the names of the people firing back at the police are blanked out, there is a danger of OJ and Tim being linked to it because their names are mentioned just before that incident. J disagrees. GW also has trouble with hearsay aspect of Sheila identifying Suniva as carrying something. J disagrees.

DC wants "Tim" to be left in. J agrees. DC adds that if what was in Suniva's hand is blanked out, it could be interpreted as a pistol considering the testimony of someone wearing a shoulder holster. He wants the bomb reference to be removed because it's obvious fantasy. DC suggests that to edit Bouvier's statement to read "individuals named by Sheila saved them" will create questions in the jury's mind as to who these people were. He suggests that it be changed to say "someone and warriors saved them".

JF - says that Crown has already established through Cst. Andrew that Wolverine was there. Photos by Flett will do the same.

HR stands to address this and Wolverine stands too. HR: "Will you let me deal with this?" Wolverine won't, and tells the judge that international law has to be addressed here. The J adjourns for an hour while Wolverine is speaking.

L/ We have almost a full house today in the accused section. Shadow is back after a couple of weeks absence, as is Pancho.

Without jury and O'Gorman.

HR - Says that the focus of the media was on Wolverine. We can't forget that he has been charged with attempted murder and there is no evidence that Wolverine was there on Sept. 11. Whether or not future evidence will show that he was there is irrelevant today.

J - reiterates the summaries. He will not edit statement as DC has asked, but will warn jury. J says that HR's concern about Sheila naming various people in the camp is valid, so he will order the witness to not name them specifically.

DC - has a concern about cross-examining witness on absurdities to show that evidence is childlike in its qualities. J says that DC has to tell him right now what his position is on editing the statement. DC says that the reference in the statement that people fleeing the truck fired back is necessary because evidence shows that this never occurred. J says that if OJ's name is removed, as GW has requested, and only "Tim" is mentioned, then the obvious inference is that the other person firing back at police is OJ, since these two are named as being blow up in the truck. DC suggests that if OJ's name is not deleted, GW can argue the same thing that there is no evidence of anyone shooting back. DC also notes that last six pages of the statement were made inadmissible, but raises the idea that the Defense never asked it specifically not to be inadmissible. J explains that the Crown had offered to not put in the last six pages because those comments were solicited by the officer, not freely given by Sheila. DC doesn't seek a ruling and will just be mindful in the cross-examination.

Wolverine: "I hope there isn't too much cover-up after this by the RCMP."

Jury in. Cst. O'Gorman back on witness stand.

DC - DO agrees that person walking by lake on 12th was going westbound and then turned to expose back which is when DO fired shot.

Video taken from Wescam is played of man walking along road by lake. DO sees man swing jacket. Man leaves roadway and after a few steps, man runs back and dives on road. DO says his recollection was that man's back was to him. On small aerial photo, DO sees docks by water. DO agrees that he later found out these were docks that people would go wash at. DO understood that man walked directly south from camp and then went westbound parallel to lake. DO agrees that the man was moving to his left and towards the lake. DC suggests that the man would be facing directly towards DO. When DO looks at large aerial photo, that would appear to be true. DO says that from his perspective, looking through his scope, man didn't appear to move off roadway.

DC suggests that this was an operation that had gained momentum and that when man began to head to dock, they went ahead with plan to shoot him anyway. DO says that he couldn't see man moving towards dock. Despite being 8:30 a.m., he hadn't thought that man might be going to wash. Says that had he been given that idea, he would have considered it.

DC suggests that had DO said to Kembel that man was heading down to lake to wash, Kembel wouldn't have ordered the shoot. JF objects. J suggests asking if DO would have sought permission to shoot if he thought person was going to wash. DC repeats question.

DO admits that he wouldn't have asked permission if he had information that man might be going to wash. DC suggests that there was some tunnel vision going on here based on previous day's events and DO was ultra-sensitive to the situation. DO admits that this would be a fair statement. He admits that the Wescam view was better than the view he had.

DC wonders if a man stalking them wouldn't have used cover to move and wouldn't have walked out in the open. DO can't comment on why the man wouldn't have used cover. DC asks why DO didn't wait 10 or 15 seconds to see if the man was going to wash. DO says he had never considered that the man might be going to wash. He says he was given a "green light", which means to shoot. DC asks if this means shoot to kill. DO: "Shoot to stop."

DO agrees that he had considered plan to shoot horses with a silenced .308. This uses a screw-on silencer and sub-sonic ammunition. Plan was scrubbed because of distance involved. DO says the armourer had a silenced gun that he had brought from Regina. DO says that you could only get this by request and signing by a commander. DO agrees that this weapon in the hands of a civilian would be highly illegal.

DO says that he would be surprised that Kembel would have given permission to shoot if he knew of a no-shoot zone. DO says that Gates is the ERT co-ordinator for E Division for B.C. He wasn't in the field, but was a support person with a lot of experience to help the commanders. DO agrees that as a paper pusher, Gates might have more information than others because of the information that was being passed by him all the time.

SF - DO says he arrived Sept. 5 and was briefed, but didn't get a background of the situation there. Only got a tactical briefing. He believes that he heard in an overview in the briefing that Lyle James sought the eviction of the Sundancers. He wasn't too sure of why the native people were there. He wasn't aware that the people were willing to resist their removal. He had heard about shootings, but had no direct knowledge of them.

DO had no knowledge that people were asking for lawful and peaceful resolution. Didn't know they were asking for a rule of law resolution. He says that he was only involved in the tactical aspects.

On Sept. 12, DO agrees that the man walking down the road didn't know where DO was. SF finds it odd that the only justification for shooting the man was that he was stalking members two km away in locations he probably didn't know of. DO maintains that this was his concern regardless. SF suggests that the RCMP were not interested in a lawful resolution, but J says that this is a submission for the jury.

DO says that he still isn't sure when the no-shoot zone was created. SF says that it's a fact that the RCMP told the camp that their security would be guaranteed.

SF suggests that following the 11th, the RCMP were frustrated because the camp wouldn't leave despite RCMP intimidation. DO agrees. He says that he can't speak of the rest of the RCMP, but he says that he wasn't frustrated himself.

SF suggests that shooting the man would have escalated the situation to give the RCMP the excuse to fire into the camp. SF: "Don't you think that shooting a man wouldn't have caused him to shoot back?" DO: "He wouldn't have if I made my shot." SF: "And killed him." DO stands by his decision to make the shot. SF: "That might help you psychologically."

SF suggests that the people in the camp were saying that B.C. was a fraud. DO hadn't heard that from his superiors. DO has no knowledge of hundreds of letters being sent into the RCMP from all over the world.

DC - interjects quickly - says he has one question regarding the cheering DO heard that he compared to a football cheer. DO isn't aware that the Shuswap pray in a high pitched singing manner, though he agrees that this is what it could have been.

SF - Asks DO whether or not his decision that man was stalking officers was a horrendous speculation in retrospect. JF objects, but J allows question. DO stood by the decision he made and still does. SF suggests that the RCMP were inciting an incident. DO: "I was trying to shoot the person." SF: "You were trying to kill the person because he potentially posed a threat." DO says it wasn't a policy of the RCMP to incite incidents.

Next witness is called. J tells jury that they are about to hear statements made by Sheila Ignace to an undercover police officer. Some of the statement reflects what other people did. J makes it clear that this evidence can only be used against Sheila Ignace and not against others. He says the jury is to disregard all comments not dealing with counts against Sheila Ignace. This is an important thing to note.

Jury foreman asks J to repeat this. J does.

JF - Next witness (#55): Cst. Christine Ann Bouvier (CB) - Presently in Grande Centre in Alberta. She was requested to go to Williams Lake in Sept. of '95 to take an active approach to learn from Sheila Ignace "who the ringleaders were." She was to assume a fictitious identity as someone with outstanding warrants. Sheila was brought into the cell. CB was lying on a bunk at the time.

Sheila introduced herself and gave CB a "cool" handshake. Cool doesn't mean unfriendly. CB describes Sheila. CB can't see Sheila in the courtroom. After the talk she had with Sheila, CB took notes. CB wants to look at her notes, but DC objects to her reading her notes by rote. J asks that CB review her notes while the court stands down and then she can use her memory.

Stand down.

AB/ Cst. Bouvier and jury back.

JF cont'd - CB says that conversation was initiated by Sheila and she said that she had just come out of Gustafsen Lake. Sheila said she had been there since noon. She said that her boyfriend, OJ, and Tim had gone for water and the truck blew up. OJ and Tim ran into the bush and returned fire. Tim never made it back. OJ and "Savala" (Suniva) were in the lake swimming and Savala had a bomb in her hand. Savala was shot in the arm. Other individuals saved them.

CB reviews notes of conversation. Her conversation began at 9:47 p.m. when Sheila was placed in cells with CB. She reads that Sheila said there were 30 people in the camp and named some of them.

From her notes, Savala is described as a hippy girl. Savala had a bomb in her hand. The military started shooting at OJ, and Savala was shot in the arm. An individual and warriors saved them by shooting at the military.

CB was removed from the cells around 10:00 p.m. and came back 20 minutes later. Sheila wasn't there at that time, but arrived a few minutes later. Sheila began conversation again.

CB describes Sheila as a happy person. CB never disclosed that she was a police officer.

DC - CB says that she had been an officer for about a year and a half before Gustafsen Lake. She was told on that day that she would be a cell plant, but not how to conduct the conversation. She agrees and believes that she was posing as a criminal, but would have to check her notes. She agrees that she has native ancestry and as a woman, Sheila trusted her. DC suggests that CB was saying that she was in for fraud. CB agrees that this was a lie and that her entire conversation was untruthful. She says that by her job, she was successful by lying. DC wonders how we can tell she's not lying today. CB replies that all she can do is offer her notes to any questions she is asked.

CB agrees that when Sheila said that she was at Gustafsen Lake, CB said "no way." CB says that this wasn't a challenge that she didn't believe her, it was only an expression. If Sheila wanted to take it as a challenge, that's up to her.

   * Day 54: Monday, October 7         * Day 57: Thursday, October 10
   * Day 55: Tuesday, October 8        * Day 58: Friday, October 11
   * Day 56: Wednesday, October 9