* Day 54: Monday, October 7 * Day 57: Thursday, October 10 * Day 55: Tuesday, October 8 * Day 58: Friday, October 11 * Day 56: Wednesday, October 9
Posted by FreeMedia
Abbreviations used in notes:
DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)
LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)
J = Judge
Cst. Christine Bouvier (CB) back on witness stand.
DC - CB says she didn't tell Sheila what she was charged with. Confirms that the best technique to illicit information was by trickery and lies. She says she was never trained in this, so had to rely on her natural talents. The conversation began at 9:47 p.m. and went to 10:05 p.m. on Sept. 12. She made her notes on the 13th. DC suggests that she has difficulty recalling the details of what was said. CB denies this. She says that if there was general conversation that she didn't feel was relevant, then she didn't record this. CB agrees that she only recorded items that she thought was important to helping the RCMP. DC says she has difficulty remembering what was important and what wasn't important. She disagrees.
DC reads from her earlier testimony from the voirdire in June, 1996. DC reads that CB only remembered that Sheila had identified herself in the cell and then CB told the court that she had trouble remembering all the points that followed. Could only remember that Sheila came out of Gustafsen Lake with a girl name Mindy and only remembers that Sheila was in the camp with her boyfriend OJ, Wolverine and others. CB had said that she doesn't remember things that weren't in her notes. CB agrees now that she had difficulty remembering these things then.
CB says that she has read her notes three times a day the last few days. DC suggests that what CB wrote in her notes was not what Sheila said. CB says she wrote what she thought was important the day after on the 13th. DC wonders why CB remembered that Sheila said she fired at an officer's kneecap when CB wrote it down the day after.
HR asks jury to leave. HR says that DC just read out that Wolverine was in the camp. HR says that he spent yesterday ensuring that this wouldn't be included. DC says that he understood that this wasn't edited. The J says it was. DC apologizes to HR and assures the court that it won't be repeated.
GW wonders if it wouldn't be a good idea for the J to repeat instructions to the jury regarding this testimony because it is not reliable.
JF asks that the jury be told where this transcript is coming from. Perhaps J can tell them that this came from a preliminary hearing. LB says that since DC told CB that she had earlier testified, jury may be confused because they wouldn't recall her testimony. DC has no problem with this.
Jury in. J explains to them that the transcript they're hearing is from a preliminary hearing. He makes it clear that he made no judgement on the guilt or innocence of the accused at that hearing.
DC cont'd - CB agrees that she had earlier said that there were points that she wouldn't remember. "There are some details that I will not remember." She can't even remember things she read just outside of the courtroom. She says that this was what she remembers to the best of her knowledge. She agrees that before she went into her cell, it had been a long time since she got sleep. She got up on the 12th at 9:00 a.m. She didn't sleep while Sheila slept. When she wrote notes, she hadn't slept for a day and a half. She agrees that this lack of sleep would affect what she remembers.
CB agrees that the information Sheila had seemed to be gathered from camp gossip. She won't reveal her personal opinion of whether Sheila is sophisticated or not. CB doesn't feel that Sheila's testimony was of a boastful nature. DC reads that CB testified in June that Sheila was boasting.
DC says that on June 25th, CB testified that Sheila was boasting.
DC suggests that CB was taking advantage of Sheila's emotional state. CB says that she wasn't concerned that because of her emotional state, Sheila's comments would be inaccurate. When CB spoke to Cpl. Kiloh, he never told CB that there was no Tim from Six Nations, that Tim wasn't dead, nor that no police officer had been shot in the kneecaps. CB agrees that she believed what Sheila had said was true.
GW - CB confirms that she had a year and a half of general duties prior to going to Williams Lake to aid the investigation of Gustafsen Lake. She wasn't following the events of Gustafsen Lake at all. She was asked to participate because of her First Nations background and CB agrees that she had no trouble with this. She agrees that this was her first undercover work. She hadn't been trained to take notes immediately following a conversation. She hadn't been trained how to remember key phrases, how to calm her apprehensions, how to conduct herself in a cell block situation or anything of that nature.
Before she went into cells, two days prior, Cpl. Kiloh was her cover man. CB wasn't aware of a truck explosion. She was introduced to another RCMP cover man.
Two days prior to going into the cell, she went to a house in Williams Lake. CB didn't know anything of the Shuswap Nation or its language. She agrees that she was tagging along with another RCMP undercover man. The plan was to approach a native male in Williams Lake. She agrees that she went to this man's yard, but doesn't know that the male had a wife and kids. The RCMP undercover man was Cst. Shortman, an officer with experience in undercover work. CB says that Shortman had a cell phone on him in contact with Kiloh.
When she came up to the yard, the male was in the yard. CB says she wouldn't recognize the man because she didn't speak to him. She didn't take any notes. CB agrees that she was being used to pretend she was Shortman's wife or girlfriend. Shortman's conversation with male lasted five minutes. She never asked what native man said to Shortman. She was instructed not to speak unless spoken to. She wasn't told anymore than this.
She remembers the man to be Archie. She doesn't know if this was his first name or last. GW suggests that this was Ernie Archie, but she's not sure. She doesn't remember speaking to him. She believes she went to this yard twice. She said that the first time she went was before Sept. 11 and the second time was after the 11th. The second time she went, she didn't speak again. She thinks they were there for a short time. She sat in the truck and Shortman got out. The first time, both she and Shortman remained in the truck.
SF - asks if Kiloh had told CB that the camp was promised to be treated with respect when they came out. She hadn't been told that. SF asks if CB would agree that lying to a person trying to illicit information wasn't dignified or respectful. J says this is a submission for the jury.
JF - Next witness (#56): Staff Sgt. Peter Dennis Marsh (PM) - stationed in Vancouver now and in 1995. PM was assisting in investigation.
On Sept. 11, he was stationed on 1000 Road, 150 metres south of water hole. Went there at 8:30 a.m. with Hodgkin and Brandt. Was maintaining forward observation post. At 11:00 a.m., saw two people walk out of Lakeshore Road to 1000 Road and walk north to tree. Then lost sight of them.
Believed them to be male, but never saw them well enough to be sure. One male was native with long hair and a weapon over shoulder. Other had black weapon with banana clip slung in front of stomach. This male wore a pink shirt and jeans and had a slim build. He observed this with his 8x30 binoculars. First person (he checks notes) wore cammo jacket and blue jeans.
The two people returned from log and then went back west along Lakeshore Rd. Now man with pink shirt had it off and was wearing it in his belt. On small aerial photo, he thinks his position was about 2" south of intersection.
At 2:00 p.m., he heard radio saying that truck was leaving camp. PM was in same position as before. He saw truck go east on Lakeshore Road and then turn north on 1000 Road. It turned around and then went east on Lakeshore Road, disappeared for a minute, then returned and went south on 1000 Road past PM's position.
When truck passed, it appeared that the people inside were the same ones as he had seen earlier. PM noticed that the person in the passenger seat had a rifle held with his hand on the forestock. The buttplate was on the floor. PM can't describe what kind of weapon it was, other than it was a rifle. He heard the person laughing as he went by. PM says that he was attempting to hide himself at the time and was looking for cover, so didn't notice clothing passenger wore. PM had a quick look at the driver in the windshield and thought it was the same one he saw earlier.
Truck passed and there was an explosion. He saw a huge dust ball. He saw a Labrador run and heard 6-12 shots. The dog took a hit and then there was a follow-up shot that killed the dog. Follow-up shot is included in the 6-12.
MB/ Without jury. J says that we will not be sitting Friday afternoon because of a request from the jury.
Jury in. J confirms their request.
JF cont'd with Marsh - PM says that he moved in a northwesterly direction towards the camp with Brandt and Hodgkin a few minutes after the explosion. PM says he heard on radio that members of his team were in pursuit, so he decided to change position to assist them. During this, he heard a number of rounds being fired from the native camp. He points on small aerial photo to a small clearing on lakeshore. There were a couple of large rocks there. He estimates gunfire he heard was coming from a northwesterly direction. He could hear rifle fire ranging from small calibre centrefire weapons (like .223) to large calibre weapons in the .30 calibre range. He says he felt rounds were coming past their position because he could hear them going through the trees. He is not aware of any of those rounds connecting with anything. "No." He didn't return fire.
Cpl. Brandt's dog was with him. They moved, following radio transmission, back to original position near water hole and met other members from Vancouver ERT. There were also other members from across the 1000 Road. PM says that once he arrived in that position, the gunfire was continuous for maybe 30 minutes. Thinks a dozen rounds went past them, breaking branches above them. He says a round hit a rock near him and ricochetted.
He observed two Bisons in total go up Lakeshore Road. First one went up when he was in his initial clearing. They eventually went back to cattle guard at 5:45 p.m., where he was handed two items. One was a banana clip and the other was a portable radio. He was also handed two weapons from Staff Sgt. Forsythe.
He's handed exhibit of AK-47 and notes that it's not in the same condition because the one he received had electrical tape on it. Second weapon Forsythe gave him was Parker Hale 22-250 rifle. He is shown this one too and he confirms it is the same.
PM says that the magazine he was handed appeared to be loaded with 7.62 x 39mm bullets. He is shown bag full of bullets and AK magazine. He thinks that the one he is shown is the same. PM suddenly remembers that he was given two radios, not one as he just recently testified. At 18:15 hours, on the same day, he gave Sgt. Bob Gray all the above exhibits.
On the 17th, he was at a location on the 1000 Road where they expected Marlowe Sam to bring people out from the camp. They were to aid in bringing the people to a "processing site". He left the area on Sept. ?
HR - On Aug. 26, PM was in Kamloops. On the 27th, he was at a briefing with Moulton, Bravener, Wilby and others. In PM's notes, there is reference to Wilby being "shot at in an unprovoked incident." PM says that he summarized notes from the briefing. PM agrees that he wasn't told that ERT was in the camp during the Wilby incident. He understood they were on the perimeter. HR wonders if it was described to PM that ERT members were dressed up as commandos sneaking around in the dark. PM says that he understood that ERT wore cammo or black. PM formed opinion that RCMP were in a dangerous position and that the natives fired at Wilby in an unprovoked way.
There is a reference in PM's notes to the natives having either bombs on the site or the capabilities of making bombs. PM says that he understood that there was fertilizer on site and a jerry can that could possibly contain diesel fuel and he understood that bombs could be made if the two are mixed. He was left with the impression that the camp had the capabilities to make bombs. He also heard that the camp was dug in with foxholes. The briefing was interrupted when a report came in that two officers had been shot at, so the team was immediately mobilized.
PM has been in the force 25 years. He is now in Drug Intelligence with HQ. Had spent time in Courtney, Victoria drug section, Edmonton, Nanaimo, Courtney drug section, and various other drug intelligence postings. PM agrees that last ten years in Vancouver has been urban drug work. Agrees that posting in Gustafsen Lake was quite different. He had been in Oka, but this was quite different.
Following briefing, he says that he was definitely concerned. He was glad that there were no dead people after hearing of Wilby and helicopter shootings.
On Aug. 27th, he relieved Prince George ERT at 9:45 p.m., at the intersection of 1000 Road and 1100 Road. He was there with about a dozen people from his team. Cst. Kevin Mann was team leader. Insp. Moulton was overall commander, but not there. At this point, he hadn't received any maps himself of area. He remained there until 8:00 or 9:00 a.m. the next day on the 28th.
On Sept. 10 at 9:15 a.m., he was at checkpoint 1019. He was there until the night.
On Sept. 11, he was at position on 1000 Road, south of Lakeshore Road, with Hodgkin and Brandt and his dog. When PM was watching two people on the road, he watched them for about five minutes. The two walked over 200 metres slowly up the hill until visual contact was broken. He agrees that his eyesight was good and doesn't wear glasses. HR suggests that one person was Caucasian. PM says that one was fair skinned.
Fair skinned person carried weapon over shoulder and carried weapon horizontally. That person was wearing a pink top like a T-shirt. The other person was carry a rifle over his left shoulder with weapon vertical up back with thumb tucked under strap in front. PM says that sometimes he carries it this way too. PM getting agitated by HR's questions - he's drinking a lot of water and can't keep himself still. Has he spent too much time with drugs?
He says that he watched the people walk up to tree with a lot of rocks in front. PM says that he had seen elders at that tree. He doesn't believe he saw this himself, but heard it over his radio. HR suggests that PM was trying to convey that the weapon carried was an AK-47. PM says that he based this on the banana clip. He says the Caucasian had an AK-47 with a banana clip and the native had the rifle. This was at about 10:00 a.m. when he observed this.
When people returned from log, PM doesn't know whether the man with the pink top wore anything underneath when he now had the pink shirt tucked into his pants. Two people got closest to him at 175 metres away. PM says that he didn't notice what Caucasian person was wearing because he was paying attention to the weapons they were carrying. Then PM was trying to conceal himself when people turned west on lakeshore. During the entire walk, PM never noticed any difference in the weapons, even as the people came closer into view. L/ HR cont'd with Marsh - HR reads from PM's statement of red truck passing PM. PM says that from where he was laying, he wasn't in a real ditch. He could see the passenger's head and shoulders. PM says that he was trying to hide and was prone during this viewing. PM says that he was perhaps 20 feet away. He didn't get a good view. He heard the passenger laugh very loudly when he went past PM. PM says he couldn't see the butt of the weapon on the floor, but he could see the passenger's forearm extended and his hand wrapped around the barrel and the forestock. HR notes that PM's statement doesn't say this. PM agrees that he can't see the butt on the floor. The window was down so he thought it was a man laughing. He didn't get a positive identification from his view whether the person was male or female. HR says PM should have said it was a "person" if he didn't know the sex. HR asks why PM just didn't say he didn't know. PM says that at the time, he thought it was a male. HR says he's trying to pin PM down, but PM keeps squirming out of it. PM (through clenched teeth): "I'm not squirming out of it."
PM says that he never made a positive identification of two people. He says he agrees with paragraph three of his statement and everything else he has told the court.
When truck blew up, he saw a lot of dust. He wasn't surprised about this because he knew of the data sheet and the Bison. PM says the Bison came in from the south. PM says the Bison may have been the same one that went along lakeshore, but he's not sure. He had changed locations by this time. He says that the Bison was 120-150 metres away from his location. Bison passed a few minutes after the explosion.
When the truck blew up, he saw the dog running out of the ball of dust. The dog was not heading straight for him. He didn't see police shoot the dog. He heard some gunfire. Then saw police come out. And then more shots. Then the dog was killed. He heard six to eight shots. He heard shots after the dog was killed. He heard the shots 70 metres away from him. Initially he heard three or four or five shots. The dog is hit. Then a brief few seconds break. Then he heard maybe three mores shots. These shots sounded like 9mm. He says it would be difficult to differentiate from the shots being fired. The 9mm is fired by the MP5 and the Sig Saur handgun.
He thinks it was a small calibre weapon. "I'm not a professional, but I know weapons fairly good from my profession and from my personal activities (hunting), but I'd say I'm still an amateur."
In PM's statement, he said that he was in a sniper position. PM regards the M-16 as a sniper weapon in certain situations. PM is shifting around and looks jittery. He is uncomfortable with the silence in the courtroom. He volunteers that he picks weapons that he feels are necessary for various situations. His eyes shift from side to side.
His statement says that PM thought one of the natives had lighter skin than native skin. He didn't know if man was Caucasian or not. His statement says that he couldn't see the driver, but he suspected that it was the same male he had seen earlier.
PM explains that six weeks ago, a member told him that they didn't have a copy of his notes. He read his notes into a tape recorder and had a stenographer typewrite it up. PM says that his typewritten notebook is complete from his notes except for descriptions of the people he arrested.
Notes from Aug. 31st say that at 17:20 hours he observed a dark blue sedan exit from the camp. He says he was part of a recce team with Hodgkin, Brandt and two service dogs. They broke into two groups. He observed two vehicles go into camp and later two go out. He doesn't know who else was in vehicles other than Bruce Clark. He says he "probably observed" him. He says he may have recognized Bruce Clark by his distinctive features. He may have been told Clark was in there, but he's not sure. Other vehicle was a dark Blazer. His notes don't help him understand. He says he likely knew that they were negotiators. "I was put in a position to possibly observe something, but that's all I observed."
PM says he saw two Bisons at different times. He says that later, two Bisons arrived at Percy's driveway. He doesn't believe one of them was the same he observed earlier because none of these were disabled. He doesn't know which ones they were, nor which one he put his gear in.
Note that Kembel had said to PM and others that they had permission to shoot any threats outside of the fenced area around the camp. Kembel told him and team that on Sept. 12 at Zulu. PM understood that fenceline was a perimeter that the natives were supposed to stay inside of. HR suggests that this was a unique instruction. PM says that if he felt that he ran up against someone that threatened him, then he could use force to stop him. "I didn't need Kembel to tell me that. I already knew that." PM agrees that this is part of the Code and believes that Kembel was pointing out the obvious. "In my opinion, he didn't have to tell me that."
PM says that if someone was shooting from inside the safe zone, he would still shoot back to protect himself. HR agrees he would be foolish to do otherwise. PM says that he wasn't sure of why this no-go zone was set up by negotiators, except he knew that the natives were not to go out of the zone.
PM agrees that the two people he saw on the road could have posed a serious threat to him, but admits that he didn't shoot them and instead tried to remain unseen.
"Green light" he heard about was another thing he already knew - that he is authorized to take action if someone threatened him - i.e., he can defend himself.
PM says he understood the situation clearly and didn't need to question Kembel's orders. He speculates that maybe Kembel intended this for less experienced officers. PM agrees that Kembel was the field commander, Hall was the overall commander, and ? was the top officer.
ST - PM is now a Staff Sergeant, but was a Sergeant at time of Gustafsen Lake. PM clarifies that Hall was overall field commander. Olfert was ? and Moulton, Kembel and Edwards were commanders in charge of all ERT teams. There were 15 teams total. One person in command of all teams was Hall. Supreme commander in the field was Kembel on site. PM would report to Kembel. Hall was in charge of all ERT operations. PM says that Edwards, Kembel and Moulton were Superintendents. Kembel was PM's immediate officer. "There isn't blind obedience or blind discipline - if I had a problem with an order, I'd question it." He admits he never questioned an order at Gustafsen Lake.
On Sept. 6, he was with Vancouver ERT and the team leader was Kevin Mann. Mann may have arrived late because of court commitments, so second in command would take over. This was Armstrong. On Sept. 6, PM was in Vancouver on regular time off. ST suggests that there was a briefing concerning Supt. Hall's order about "compromising authority". PM says that this likely happened. He returned on the 9th and Mann "likely" told him about the briefing. PM says he doesn't have specific notation about compromise authority because team members spoke with one another all the time and they may have spoke of "green light" or "compromising authority". PM sees that his evasive answers have created confusion on some jury members' faces. "I hope that the jury understands where I'm coming from."
AB/ During break, HR is heard remarking "this bastard is a real dirty son of a bitch."
ST cont'd with Marsh - PM agrees he kept a notebook during the operation, as he has throughout his career. On Aug. 27 meeting with Moulton, Bravener, Wilby and Olfert, he kept notes. ST notes that this entry is the longest entry from Aug. 26 to Sept. 17. PM doesn't think so, but ST shows that this is the single longest entry of his entire notebook. PM finds a note close to its length. PM says that he kept more notes then because it was at the beginning when he didn't know much of what was going on, but as he stayed on he learned more. He says that they didn't have a very good communication system. Sometimes they couldn't get information to their headquarters unless there was an aircraft able to repeat their transmissions. PM agrees that the briefings would be important then.
PM says the team leader was responsible for getting briefed at main briefings and then information would be passed down. Some days they didn't get briefed at all, depending on where they were in the field. Between the 6th and the 11th, PM believes he would have been told from the 9th to the 11th of information he needed to know. PM agrees that he was aware of a no-go zone. PM says that he was the person that communicated to the team that the truck was heading southbound. He learned of no-go zone on the 12th by Kembel. He believes that the negotiators would have told the camp of the no-go zone before the 11th. He had been advised that the water hole was in a no-go zone, so that's why they were going to ambush the truck there.
PM says that Kevin Mann told him of plan on morning of the 11th. ST suggests that they knew the plan before they went to Percy's lease on the 10th. They were discussing how to "whittle down the numbers of the camp." Mann and the team made the plan. They hadn't planned to stay overnight on the 10th, but nightfall caught them off guard.
He says he was briefed on the plan on the 10th or the 11th. The team discussed it. "You're always thinking, there's lots of time, what can we do here?", so they came up with a plan, which Mann put on paper. He doesn't remember the specific days they discussed it.
ST says that Hall was closely monitoring the negotiations and would have been aware of no-go zones. ST finds it difficult to believe that he wouldn't have passed down to the field a crucial element that could impact on their plan. PM doesn't know when the no-go zone was discussed and agreed upon. "I don't know that."
PM says that he has a pretty good recollection of things that happened on the 11th that he doesn't have notations for.
Jury asks what compromise authority is. PM says that means that if your position of stealth is compromised, that you have an immediate action that you go into to deal with that situation. He says that they might not give you compromise authority if they want to keep you hidden. Compromise authority is given for the officer's protection, so that he can take action immediately if he's spotted.
PM says that he handled a chainsaw when they dropped a tree down by the cattle crossing on the 1000 Road at 1045 position. They cut trees across road on Sept. 1 to keep people from going in and to keep them from coming out. PM says that they had to return on the 2nd because they jammed the chainsaw in a tree on the 1st and they were loosing light. On the 2nd, they brought wedges out and freed chainsaw. ST wonders if this was the "hanging tree". PM thinks it might be because the tree was hanging over the road. PM doesn't believe Kembel coined the name. PM agrees that the roadblock was unmanned.
He was aware from the beginning of the roadblock just north of the intersection of 1000 Road and Lakeshore Road. He had nothing to do with cutting those trees down. PM agrees that road traffic was impossible from the north for several days before the 11th. He agrees that he was flown in for insertions from Zulu. There was a safe landing spot near the cattle crossing.
On the 11th, his forward observation post was 75 metres south of water hole. Rest of team were further 100 metres south of him. Percy's driveway was further 100 metres south from them. He points this out on the large aerial photo. ST suggests that it's downhill, west of 1000 Road towards lake. PM maintains that his position was fairly level, with just a gradual slope. He doesn't believe his position was six feet below the road surface. PM is very defensive about this, creating a few raised eyebrows in the jury. ST suggests that whether it was steep or not, his position was lower then the road. PM denies this. PM says that he wasn't higher, but level "or slightly lower."
PM says that Cpl. Hodgkin and Cpl Brandt with police dog were in forward position. He says Sgt. Debolt wasn't with him. His 8:30 a.m. entry says that the three of them were setting up the forward position, while Sgt. Armstrong was in charge of EDU team about a hundred yards south of his position. PM says that Mann was present, but Armstrong was in command of that particular operation.
ST asks if Mercer was in the forward position too, but PM says that at 8:30 a.m., Mercer wasn't. During explosion, Brandt was with him too, PM maintains. ST suggests that the 8:30 entry wasn't made then, but later - that PM made an entry when he was handed evidence later in the day. ST suggests that Mercer was at his position prior to 12:14 p.m. and was then relieved by Brandt.
PM doesn't recall who relieved him in his position at 06:30 hours, but thinks it was probably Mercer. PM doesn't recall if Mercer relieved him later either. ST suggests that Mercer was with him when they made the initial observations of the two males. PM didn't feel Mercer's relief was important, so didn't note it.
PM agrees that everyone had a radio, whether or not they were working all the time or not. He agrees that some of the time during ERT operations, radio logs are maintained. He says that his team had mode for secret transmissions and they would sometimes use this mode. PM agrees that as far as he's concerned, it's normal procedure for radio logs to be maintained. ST suggests that a number of the things he testified that he was told by on the radio weren't in the logs. PM says that the communications were poor, the people keeping the logs might go to the washrooms. "Sometimes, one of us would hear something on the radio and the person next to you wouldn't. That's what our communications were like."
PM says that in his notes on the 11th, some of his times are accurate, others are estimates. ST reads from radio log. PM says that by 8:30, the data sheet was well in place he feels. ST suggests that radio transmissions picked up once Eye in the Sky began flying.
* Day 54: Monday, October 7 * Day 57: Thursday, October 10 * Day 55: Tuesday, October 8 * Day 58: Friday, October 11 * Day 56: Wednesday, October 9