* Day 59: Monday, October 21 * Day 62: Thursday, October 24 * Day 60: Tuesday, October 22 * Day 63: Friday, October 25 * Day 61: Wednesday, October 23
Posted by FreeMedia
Abbreviations used in notes:
DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)
LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)
J = Judge
There is a strange calm in the air as if everyone is on their best behaviour after yesterday's fiasco. The sheriffs are more polite than usual - even the ones that aren't usually in our courtroom. Looks like they were all briefed to mellow out. There is no noticeable increase in security, except that the senior NCO sheriff is present until the J enters.
GW - says his client wants to apologize. JoJo agrees. GW explains that because of things the officer said yesterday, JoJo made comments and his father tried to calm him down. It was out of character for JoJo.
J gratefully accepts the apology and will pass that on to the jury. J says that a jury member will be late because of car trouble.
LB - goes over the day to follow. Tremblay is still to come. There are also negotiator transcripts the Crown wants to submit, but he understands that the Defense wants the negotiator tapes played as well, which total about seven hours in length. LB doesn't know what the issues are to make them relevant and assumes a voirdire will be required.
HR - says that it is for the Crown to decide relevancy. HR says that the Crown is trying to show that the guiding hand at the camp was Wolverine. The Crown is putting these tapes in for their own case, not for the Defense. HR doesn't want Wolverine centred out as a leader. HR says that the way the tapes are currently edited, the transcriptions may not accurately reflect what was said.
MA - trouble with disclosures. Before break last week, they received 350 pages of notes dealing with negotiators. MA says that at the end of the disclosures there is a note that says that the Crown called police about pages that shouldn't be disclosed. MA has sent a letter to Crown about this. Also haven't received Will Says from negotiators, nor videotapes taken during negotiator sessions which are said to exist. There are no notes regarding Mike Webster and his communications with a man named Sterritt, which there are supposed to be notes for. MA says there are also Charter issues that come up regarding the cutting off of communications to the camp.
LB - says that it would be better to play all the tapes in front of a jury so the witness doesn't have to sit through it all in a voirdire. HR says this is okay.
J stands down to let Counsel discuss the logistics of playing all the tapes and to wait for the late juror.
Following a break, Cst. Maurice Tremblay (MT) is back on the witness stand. Jury in and J tells them that JoJo offered his sincere apologies for his behaviour yesterday and J hopes the jury will accept it, as he has. J says that it's not surprising considering the pressures of a trial like this.
JF - MT says he asked JoJo about the shooting incident in August. JoJo said that he shot at the officer and indicated with his finger that he aimed for his head. Then the officer left and JoJo said that he fired three shots. When asked about any missing people from the camp, JoJo mentioned that Paintball was missing, but the cops brought him in. JoJo said that Henry Saul could bring him clothes.
GW - MT agrees that he made an oath yesterday to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. MT agrees that JoJo appeared to be normal when MT entered the interview room with JoJo.
MT agrees that twice JoJo started pounding his chest. GW asks if this is normal behaviour and MT claims that he has interviewed people before that got excited. MT says that JoJo only pounded his chest once. MT said that JoJo wasn't articulate, but understandable. MT agrees that he detected mental impairment in JoJo. MT explains that when JoJo answered questions, it was in a normal manner as he explained to jury yesterday. GW wonders if a man pounding his chest in a small room with two men is a normal reaction. MT maintains that JoJo understood the questions. GW asks if MT would say that JoJo is a person of a grade three level. MT doesn't want to answer that and says again that JoJo was answering questions normally. MT agrees that when he described JoJo as being normal, he only meant that he answered in a normal fashion. MT says that sometimes JoJo mumbled or slurred words, but otherwise made sense.
MT agrees that JoJo said that he had a record longer then both officers put together. GW suggests that this was nonsense, but MT claims he wasn't familiar with his record. When JoJo said that he served time everywhere, MT claims again he didn't know his background. GW suggests that it quickly became clear to MT that JoJo suffered a mental disability.
MT agrees that he became involved on Aug. 26, but didn't arrive in 100 Mile House until the early morning of the 27th. MT agrees that he had never met JoJo before, nor had he ever worked in native communities. He's not familiar with anyone that has Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, but is aware of what it is through the media.
MT worked with Russell under Sgt. Shakey. Shakey reports to Supt. Olfert. Russell is senior to MT in experience and MT agrees that at times, he has taken directions from him. MT did so when Russell said they wouldn't be recording JoJo's statement. He agrees that in the past he has used a tape recorder, as well as just taking notes. He agrees that the tape recorder is ideal for recording tones of voice and intonations, but he's not aware of it being recommended in the RCMP manual. MT claims that because other accused declined to be taped, Russell decided not to use it this time. GW suggests that by not taping, there is a chance for mischief. MT denies this is the purpose of not taping. GW suggests that by taping, there can be no question to what was said. MT agrees that it is more accurate. He also agrees that tape recorders were available and he had used them before.
On Sept. 17, MT is aware that a number of people were arrested near Gustafsen Lake. At time of arrest, MT had no idea that he would be interviewing JoJo. MT was at arrest site and part of the arrest team. On the 17th, MT agrees that the accused were identified, photographed and videotaped. That night, he got off shift and stayed around Canim Lake area near 100 Mile House. At this point, he doesn't know that he's going to interview JoJo. MT was with two other officers that night, including Russell. MT agrees that during the evening there was no discussion of JoJo's lawyer, Richard Gibbs. He agrees that he didn't know where Gibbs was staying that night.
The next morning, at 6:00 a.m., he reported for work at 100 Mile House Detachment. There was a briefing held that morning with RCMP in the command trailer for which everyone was given their day's assignments. MT claims that in the morning, he somehow became aware that Gibbs was at the Red Coach Inn. GW suggests that this is incorrect and MT didn't know where Gibbs was when he entered the interview room with JoJo.
MT agrees that in June of 1996, in a voirdire, he testified under oath to tell the truth. GW asks the court to take the morning break while he finds a particular passage in that court transcript.
MB/ GW - Tells J that he has instructions to proceed without JoJo, who has gone back to his cell.
GW cont'd with Cst. Tremblay - MT agrees that he didn't know where Gibbs was before the interview with JoJo. He says that he had come to believe earlier in the day that Gibbs was at the Red Coach Inn, though he agrees that he didn't have any direct personal knowledge. He doesn't know when he got the information. He denies that he learned this when Russell stated it during JoJo's interview.
GW reminds MT that he testified earlier in a voirdire. MT remembers this. On page 55 of the court transcripts, GW begins to read. At that time, MT said that during an earlier meeting with Russell, there was no mention of lawyers and also testified that no one told him of Gibbs' whereabouts prior to the interview with JoJo. MT also admitted that he didn't know of Gibbs' location until Russell brought it up during the interview. MT now agrees that this is what he testified and he still stands by it.
GW returns to line where he said he didn't tell Russell where Gibbs was that morning. GW has MT open his notebook to page eight. GW notices that MT's notebook has some more writing in it. GW examines it and compares it to the copy GW has. GW notes that MT has since altered his notes in a different pen. MT says that the Crown told him to make notes in relation to a summary that he and Russell formulated earlier this year. MT says that Crown told him this earlier this week. MT says that he hasn't photocopied these revised notes. GW says he'll return to this later.
GW finds passage in MT's notebook that says that JoJo stated, "I want to talk to my lawyer." GW asks where in his notes it says that Russell told JoJo that Gibbs was in the Red Coach Inn. MT says that Russell said this at the time, but didn't note it. He says that he wrote most of the things he heard, but didn't write this down. MT does recall Russell telling JoJo that his lawyer was at a meeting at the Red Coach Inn. MT says that at this point they made the phone available to JoJo, but he didn't take it.
MT agrees that he knows, as an officer, what "I want to talk to a lawyer" means because he has been instructed to respond to this. MT says that Russell had given JoJo a Charter warning and JoJo had said that he had spoken to his lawyer earlier, so MT assumed that JoJo had already gotten instructions. When JoJo didn't respond to the telephone, they proceeded with the interview.
MT hadn't been to the Red Coach Inn, but he knew where it was. MT didn't challenge Russell's words that JoJo's lawyer was at the Red Coach Inn. MT agrees that he may have testified yesterday that Russell told JoJo that his lawyer was unavailable. He agrees that JoJo wasn't told of his lawyer's availability until two hours after the start of the interview. Just prior to this, JoJo was ordered to remove his clothing. MT didn't tell him why his clothing was being taken. MT claims that he told JoJo that they were seizing his clothing. MT says that he used a normal tone of voice when he told him this. MT says that he saw that JoJo was wearing underwear. He didn't notice whether his underwear was soiled or not. "I didn't notice what condition his underwear was in." He didn't tell JoJo that they were taking the clothing for scientific analysis. MT claims that the clothing was taken for testing of gunpowder residue and also to use it for identification from video surveillance. MT agrees that there were photos taken of JoJo from every angle. He knows that testing clothing is done by checking for residue as soon as possible. MT agrees that this wasn't done this time.
He also agrees that the jail cells were not checked for gunpowder residue. GW suggests that there were people in JoJo's cell prior to JoJo getting there. MT agrees that this is likely. MT agrees that JoJo being in his cell for 12 hours could have rubbed up against all sorts of substances. MT maintains that it took this long to seize his clothes because no one else had taken them.
MT doesn't know when the clothes were sent to the lab for analysis. GW suggests that the only reason the clothing was taken to dehumanize JoJo in their presence. MT disagrees. He does agree that for two hours, JoJo didn't admit to being involved in anything to do with Gustafsen Lake. GW says that yesterday, it took MT 15 minutes to read out his notes of an interview that took an hour and a half. GW suggests that MT wouldn't take no for an answer. MT says that sometimes JoJo wouldn't say anything, so they would just change subjects. MT agrees that at the beginning, JoJo was saying he didn't know anything and denied shooting anyone. Over these two hours, he noticed that JoJo was mentally challenged.
GW suggests that after two hours, they seized JoJo's clothing. MT agrees that this was when they took his clothing. MT agrees he had a chance to take the clothing in the morning, but didn't. MT says that it wasn't in his mind to seize JoJo's clothing - it was Russell who seized the clothing. GW suggests that MT took JoJo's clothes to embarrass him in front of the police. MT denies this. GW suggests that a small, frail native man removing his pants in a small 10 x 10 foot room in front of two large men would be intimidating. GW suggests that it is an RCMP technique to remove people's clothing to get them to talk. MT is aware of no such technique.
GW suggests that a mentally challenged person wouldn't understand the men's motives when he was told to strip. MT says that they had no motives other than to take his clothing and to give him interim clothing. MT assumes that a white, vinyl suit would be cold in a concrete and steel cell if it was cold in the cell.
L/ GW cont'd with Cst. Tremblay - MT confirms that Cst. Bauman came into the room for about ten seconds. Then Russell told JoJo that the police, the public and the media have the wrong idea of what was being said about the stand. This was the second time that Russell had mentioned this. MT can't comment on whether he agreed that Russell's statement was true or not. He knew by now that JoJo was mentally challenged.
MT knows that there are certain things you can say to a person that will make them talk. MT can't comment on why Russell made the statement about media and public perception. MT denies that this was a type of technique to make people talk - it was only a way of generating conversation. MT claims he wasn't really following the media at the time. He says that he didn't really know why the stand was made. In MT's opinion, he didn't think that what Russell had said was false because he didn't really know what the media and public thought about the stand. Russell asked JoJo what the stand was about and JoJo didn't respond. Nor did he respond to Russell's suggestion that the media was calling them terrorists. JoJo was in his vinyl suit at this time. For about ten minutes, there was no response to the questions. JoJo was asked if he had shot at cops for the hell of it. JoJo didn't answer. JoJo was asked if he had been shot at and again, he was silent.
At this point, MT got involved in the questioning and told JoJo that they had been straight with him because they had offered him his lawyer. GW suggests that MT was now coming across as a friendly guy. MT says that he was just saying that they had been straight and had said he could contact his lawyer.
This was now 11:00 a.m. or so and JoJo hadn't said anything incriminating to this point. GW suggests that the earlier questioning hadn't worked. Then seizing his clothing hadn't worked. Next JoJo said that he wanted to talk to his lawyer. GW suggests that this meant that JoJo didn't want to talk to them. MT agrees that JoJo wanted to talk to his lawyer. He said that a phone had been provided for him.
MT says that Russell told JoJo that Gibbs was at the Red Coach Inn. GW has him look on page 56 of court transcripts from voirdire. On June 18th, in a voirdire, MT had testified that "Cst. Russell said that Mr. Gibbs was unavailable, but he could call any other lawyer and a phone book was made available to him." MT agrees that this is what he said. MT doesn't know whether JoJo could read or write. He assumed that JoJo could use a phone and directory. He doesn't know that some people who can't read are embarrassed to admit that. MT says that he doesn't know if his lawyer's card was locked away in his personal effects. MT assumed that if JoJo needed a number, he would have mentioned it. Instead he just sat there in silence.
In his notes, MT can't say how long it was before the next question. MT claims he has never heard of the technique of just sitting in silence to get someone nervous. At no time did they tell JoJo that the meeting was over. At no time did they say that they would find his lawyer for him.
Now the silence is broken and Russell asks JoJo how many times he fired at a helicopter. JoJo raised a single finger and MT assumed that this meant once. This is the first time JoJo admitted something. GW suggests that first JoJo had asked for his lawyer to get out of the interview room, but was denied. Then he kept quiet and he still couldn't get out. Finally, after two hours, he starts telling them what they want to hear. MT has never heard of a technique used on children where you get them to say or do things by promising them things. From this point on, for the next 20 minutes, JoJo said everything they wanted to hear and was finally let go.
MT says that JoJo never asked to leave the room, but he admits that they never told him he could leave anytime he wanted. Then JoJo was asked how many times he shot at APCs. JoJo said he never did. MT claims he wanted to believe this. He knew of no involvement of JoJo in any incidents - only that he was in the encampment. MT agrees that just because a person is in the encampment doesn't mean that they were shooting at APCs.
GW asks MT if he can name any police in the bush that had been fired at other than Wilby. MT can't. GW reads that JoJo said that all he did was return fire and that he was in a gulley. MT doesn't know where the gulley was. MT knows that Wilby was shot northwest of the camp and is aware of no gully there, but says that he doesn't know the area well. GW suggests that there are no gullies in that area. MT agrees that he never followed this up by checking out the area of the Wilby shooting to see if this answer made any sense. MT claims that he didn't handle the follow-up part of the investigation.
GW suggests that there was no RCMP officer in the area of the APCs on Sept. 11th. MT can't say for sure, though he agrees that he was informed that the officers around the APC site were inside the APCs. MT is aware of no officers who claimed to have been shot at while outside of the APCs.
Next Russell asked how many shots JoJo fired and JoJo said he fired a clip and a half from a .303 British. MT doesn't know what happened to the weapons of World War II, nor what kind of weapons you'll find on every reserve in Canada.
Interview was at two and a half hour mark now. Russell asked about the Suburban shooting and JoJo said that he was in the camp. Russell then asked if JoJo was being left out and he responded "yeah, they didn't want to tell me too much." MT admits that JoJo's intellectual ability was apparent now, but doesn't know why Russell asked that question.
JoJo maintained that he didn't know if the police would find any weapons there. JoJo said that he fired once at a police helicopter, just after Mercredi went into the camp, which was on the 25 or the 26th of August. MT knew that a helicopter had been fired at on August 24 and Sept. 7. MT was not aware of any helicopter being fired on once when Mercredi was in the camp. MT agrees that he never followed this up on by finding out whether a helicopter had been fired at during this time period. MT agrees that JoJo said that during the Suburban shooting he was standing by the fire. MT is not familiar with where the Suburban was shot at, as claimed by Clelland and Molendyk. MT agrees that he had the opportunity to see if you could see the Suburban site from the fire.
Russell asked JoJo if he had fired a warning shot at the policeman sneaking through the bush. JoJo said that this is what they were told to do, but that he never saw anybody approaching the camp. MT wasn't aware that someone had phoned the police to complain about people sneaking around in the bush. MT agrees that JoJo said that he never saw anyone and yet someone called to say what they saw. MT says that an investigator never came to him to say that this didn't make sense. He knows that RCMP readers sit and review files. No reader came to him to say the files weren't consistent. MT says that, to the best of his knowledge, this file was not read by any readers in 100 Mile House. MT never took his notebooks to Supt. Olfert to show him these things. He kept them in his pocket until this trial.
There is a note that JoJo slept all day and stayed up all night. GW suggests that if he slept all day, he couldn't have been firing at the APCs. MT doesn't know about his sleeping habits in the camp. MT aware of no officers that were shot at in the night.
Russell asked what JoJo's job would have been like during the red truck incident. JoJo responded, "take it out with a .303." GW asked if that means he took out the red truck with a .303. This isn't how MT understood it. He thought that it meant that JoJo would have responded by taking something out. JoJo said that he ran to "the bunker" when he saw the APCs. JoJo also said that he slept in the bunker.
Now Russell asked about the shooting in August. JoJo said he was aiming for here, pointing to his head. GW suggests that at this point in the interview, MT now believed that JoJo had just admitted to firing at Wilby. Wilby was the only officer to report being shot at.
GW suggests that MT knew that Wilby was fired at once while moving through the buck brush. GW suggests that three shots were fired. MT says that this is possible. MT agrees that all the reports he heard were that only one shot was fired, but this doesn't mean that he disbelieved JoJo's statement of firing three shots. MT agrees that he never went to Wilby immediately after the interview with JoJo and asked how many times he was really shot at. MT says that he never asked Wilby this to this day.
AB/ There are a lot of native supporters in the gallery today. As Wolverine is led into the courtroom, they all stand up and give him the fist up salute.
Jury and J in.
GW cont'd with Cst. Tremblay - MT agrees that JoJo told him that he fired three shots in August. MT has never gone to the officers involved and canvassed how many shots were fired. No officers have come to him to talk about the shots either. He has only spoken to Crown about this. This answer basically concluded JoJo's interview, except for a couple of more questions. He assumed that Sgt. Shakey would have received word that JoJo admitted to shooting at Wilby, though he admits that in his official reports he never mentioned that JoJo said he fired three shots. JoJo went on to say that he picked up his spent shell casings. MT not aware of any of the ERT members from the 18th reporting that the person that shot at Wilby stooped over to pick something up. JoJo claimed that this was what he was taught to do.
Then MT asked about the missing person from the camp. JoJo said that it was so long ago that he didn't remember who it was that didn't return from the Sept. 11th battle. MT realized that JoJo was mentally impaired. He claims that he doesn't manipulate mentally challenged people. Then JoJo said that the cops had already picked up this missing person. MT asked JoJo if this person was Paintball and then JoJo said yes. GW suggests that JoJo is susceptible to manipulation. MT said that he didn't do anything to manipulate JoJo. The last thing JoJo said was that all he was doing was protecting his land.
MT agrees that JoJo had mentioned that he owned a car. MT had no reason not to believe this. JoJo also said he had taken military training in Kamloops, but MT said he doubted this. MT claims that by this point, he had a fairly accurate recording of JoJo's statement. MT agrees the best way to record a statement is to tape record it. GW suggests that the second best way is to have someone read over their statement and then to sign it. MT says he has done this with witnesses before, but didn't think to do it with JoJo. MT said that he felt the best way to do it at the time was to just make notes. GW suggests he did it this way to get a one sided story. MT denies this.
MT agrees that he amended his notes. He says that Crown had told him to get together with Russell in March of 1996 to discuss what had gone on in the interview room. MT says he doesn't know how long it took to prepare this in Kamloops. He denies discussing the whereabouts of Gibbs with Russell. He didn't have any direct knowledge of Gibbs' whereabouts on Sept. 18, 1995, but knows he didn't tell Russell this.
MT knows of no tests done on the seized clothing.
MA - MT admits that he read the incident reports of Wilby concerning Aug. 17-18. He doesn't know how he came about seeing the one page report. It was a typed summary of the two days. He has viewed the re-enactment video. He hasn't viewed any other videotapes of that date. He read other statements by other members. He doesn't know if the Wilby report was signed by Wilby.
SF - MT says that on Sept. 18th, his shift officially began when he got in his vehicle. He says that he didn't go into the detachment that morning, but to the trailer instead.
SF asks if MT knows that JoJo was laughing hysterically for an hour that morning at 6:00 a.m. He didn't know that. SF asks if the RCMP ever drug persons before asking them questions. He says no. MT says they don't have access to drugs. SF suggests that JoJo was drugged at 6:00 a.m. to make him laugh hysterically, but MT denies any involvement with that.
For three hours, between 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m., MT says that he was being briefed and also had breakfast.
SF notes a change in MT's notebook when he began his shift that originally was 7:00 a.m., but was amended to 6:00 a.m. MT doesn't know why he changed it. He went first to the command trailer for a briefing after leaving Canim Lake. He agrees that he didn't record anything of the briefing. He says that Shakey and Bass were there and that minutes were taken. He assumes the minutes are kept at the detachment. MT says that most members that day were involved in interviewing. MT, Russell and Smith were the persons doing interviews that day. Neither Bass nor Shakey ordered MT to strip JoJo in a 10 x 10 foot cell. MT agrees that he and Russell did it on their own initiative.
SF reads a section of the Criminal Code about torture that says it is punishable whether done by a civilian, an officer or a soldier. This torture includes coercion. MT denies that he was torturing JoJo. SF doesn't believe that's so. SF says that if MT is ever charged with torture, then she hopes the real criminals are brought to justice.
MT agrees that the last thing JoJo said was, "I was just protecting my own land, that's all." MT agrees that this is probably what JoJo believed in his own mind. MT says that he is led to believe that the land he stands is legally Canada. SF asks if MT knows that there are outstanding aboriginal rights. J says that the witness's opinion is not of help to the jury. SF says it's of importance to her defence because she is maintaining that this court has no jurisdiction. J says that questions of law are for him to deal with. SF says that they're not even for him to deal with because he's part of the system. The J quietly asks if she has any questions for the witness.
SF asks MT if he's sworn to uphold the law. MT says he is. She says that he never investigated whether the claims to the land were true.
SF asks if MT realizes that his and Russell's attacks are just a continuing line of attacks on native people. The J says that this is not a question for this witness.
MT agrees that he is aware of one incident where a white police officer beat up on a native person in Vancouver. SF asks if he is only aware of one incident of thousands. He maintains that only one comes to mind. MT is not aware of any attacks on natives around the Canim Lake area.
He is not aware that the camp was standing on constitutional law, section 25. SF asks if there is any way for an officer to learn about constitutional law in the police department and MT says that an officer is on his own regarding this. He was not aware of the Royal Proclamation Act of 1763 until this incident. SF asks if he is aware that his duty is to uphold this law. He says he can't uphold what he doesn't know about, though he admits that he's sworn to uphold the law. SF suggests that the standoff wouldn't have occurred had the RCMP not been so selective about what laws it upholds. She encourages him to learn about the Royal Proclamation on his own before dismissing him from further questions.
Tremblay dismissed and jury stood down for the day.
Wolverine addresses the court. The defendants and the large group of supporters in the gallery stand for him. Wolverine says that regarding his son's incident yesterday, he doesn't like what is happening to Indian people here. He wants to know where the court got the jurisdiction here. The Indian Act was forced upon the Indians - they had nothing to do with it.
The laws are based on the Constitution. "When I hear about the rule of law, it gives me hope that we might get justice." But when he saw what happened yesterday, he wondered what's going on. "We are protecting our land and yet we are the ones that are criminalized and shot at."
When you look at the Indian Act, that's when we lost our rights. "Is that when you got your jurisdiction?" The 1875 Duty of Disallowance clearly disallowed B.C.'s Land Acts. I hear that officers are getting medals for what they did, but maybe it's only the Col. Sanders award. They got the chicken award for running away. We have to sit here day in and day out - I'm getting blisters - I don't know how you people do it. (Judge smiles). We have to listen to these officers here who don't know where the truth begins and the lies end. "If you interpret the law, then before this trial is over, I want your decision on the land" so it can go on the internet so people can learn about what is going on and maybe honourable people will see it and act. Millions and millions are being stolen and you think it's nothing. It's time to find some honourable people. These are honourable people that made the stand. They never ran.
I'm going to address the court and the jury about what we did to bring this out. What I testified to in Geneva is that this government is so corrupt and the corruption starts at the bottom at the Law Society and goes all the way to the top to the Prime Minister's office. I told them that if we don't get justice in the U.N., then where else can we go? I've spent my life bumming around the country trying to get the truth out and I'm not ashamed to admit that this is what I did. I acted with honour. That's all I have to say.
Cheers and clapping in the gallery.
HR - says that the Defense want to hear the negotiator tapes, although some of the tape quality is terrible. LB says that they're trying to get a better machine to play it.
* Day 59: Monday, October 21 * Day 62: Thursday, October 24 * Day 60: Tuesday, October 22 * Day 63: Friday, October 25 * Day 61: Wednesday, October 23