Trial, Week 13: Summary - October 25


WEEK 13: OCTOBER 21 - OCTOBER 25, 1996

   * Day 59: Monday, October 21         * Day 62: Thursday, October 24
   * Day 60: Tuesday, October 22        * Day 63: Friday, October 25
   * Day 61: Wednesday, October 23


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia

FRIDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1996 - DAY 63

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

LB - says the Crown originally scheduled Farquhar to come in today, but there was miscommunication so he won't be here this morning. Instead, all counsel has agreed to play the audiotapes in their entirety without the need for a voirdire and without the witnesses present.

MA - asks that Glen get paid for the holidays and for the two days that he missed this week because of sickness. J agrees.

Jury in.

LB - says that the Crown is going to play audiotapes and is grateful that the Defense has allowed the tapes to be played without the need for the police witnesses to be here now too. Those negotiators will be called later. J warns jury that the transcripts they have of the tapes are only a few people's opinions of what is said and the jury will have to decide for itself what they feel is said.

LB says there are a total of 17 tapes.

Tape One is played from Aug. 28, 1995. Ovide Mercredi calls the camp and Wolverine gets on the phone. Mercredi says that when he was last talking with the camp, he said that he would try to restore communications. He's working on this, but it's only open for short periods of time. Mercredi says that he is with Antoine Archie, Agnes Snow, Len and Ed John. Mercredi introduces Dennis Ryan, Bruce Cameron, Sarich and Mike Webster from the RCMP. Mercredi says he wants to see a peaceful end to this.

Wolverine gets on to say that ??? It's totally inaudible. From the transcripts, it is obvious that Wolverine is slamming the B.C. government for being corrupt.

Mercredi gets on to say that he understands the cause, but he doesn't support the means.

Wolverine says it doesn't matter because he's part of the whole corrupt system.

Mercredi says he doesn't want to see anyone die. The phone goes dead. At 19:01 hours, Ovide Mercredi (OM) gets on the phone again. Wolverine (W) says that if they are killed there, then Canada will have to answer for that in the international community. OM says he won't argue that the country is unfair, but asks what Wolverine wants. W says that he wants a third party, independent tribunal. Next he wants Bruce Clark brought up here. He also wants to be able to make calls out of the camp.

OM says he'll have to talk to the Chiefs here and the RCMP. W says he also wants smokes, and laughter is heard in the background. W says that they won't lay down and start squirting like little dogs. They'll stand like men. OM says he'll call back.

Next call: OM says that he doesn't want to negotiate for the RCMP, since they can negotiate for themselves. He is proud of the stand they're making. He introduces Dennis Ryan as the police negotiator. W is inaudible, but I've just lost the transcripts so I don't know what he's saying. OM says he spoke to Splitting the Sky, who says that he is working hard for W. W asks OM to tell Splitting the Sky to call former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark. OM says that he will let W speak to Ryan.

Dennis Ryan (DR) introduces himself. He says that they will speak and try to reach a satisfactory ending. DR asks what W wants and he will write it down. W says he wants Bruce Clark, Glen Kealey, and a couple of carton of cigarettes, different brands (laughs in the jury). W says that everyone is in good spirits. W also wants a phone line. He goes on to say that he wants a separate tribunal to decide on the land issue. DR asks if he doesn't feel like the system is very fair. W says that that's right. Bruce Clark has gone through two court levels with 11 different cases and the courts won't listen to the law.

W says that if and when Bruce enters the Privy Council, then they want diplomatic immunity. The domestic laws of Canada do not apply to the Indian people.

DR says that he will take these concerns to his boss. Percy gets on. He wants to know some things. The cowboys served an eviction notice without the RCMP. He says that they had no jurisdiction there. DR asks if he means that the native people feel that this is their land. W gets back on and asks about DR's background. DR says that he has been on the force for 25 years and is aware of many laws. When asked about constitutional law, DR says he tries to know as much as he can. W asks that if this is the case, then why are they calling the people in the camp squatters. W says the laws of Canada don't apply to them because of the 1875 Duty of Disallowance. DR asks if this means that B.C. usurped the land from the federal government. W says that the Duty of Disallowance meant that the federal government disallowed the B.C. Land Acts.

W says that the multi-national corporations use the RCMP and the courts to steal the resources. W says that when you look at the word justice, you really mean "just us". Some smiles in the jury. DR says that he will talk to his boss. W says that he should call Bruce Clark because he's not coming out until Bruce comes in. He also says that his daughter is probably concerned on the outside, but he is here because the law has to be addressed. Canada has no answers for their legal position and Bruce Clark is the best man for this job. Everything is being recorded here and this will all get out to the world and it will soon know what Canada is all about.

W says that the corruption is because of the New World Order and the Trilateral Commission and you people are trying to shut me up from getting the truth out.

W says that 500 years ago, the Indian people opened their cupboards to the colonizers. Now there are only crumbs left and you want them too. If there is a massacre, then the world will know what Canada is really about.

W reminds DR before he goes that they want communications opened to the outside world. DR says that he has to run it past his boss. W asks who this is and DR says it's Sarich. W says he thought it was that puddle jumper Montague. There are chuckles in the jury. DR explains that Montague is the press officer.

DR says that as long as they are talking, no one is going to move in on the camp.

Tape Two - Aug. 28: Very low. J asks LB if there is a better tape. LB will look.

MB/ Tape is better. DR says that the separate tribunal W asked for is being looked at and they're getting legal direction on that. They're trying to get Bruce Clark.

Regarding opening the phone line, DR's boss is concerned about the amount of calls coming in. He says that they can bring in food and smokes in exchange for his granddaughter. W says that they are not negotiating people's lives. They want to stay in. DR says that the food can be sent in the next morning. W says that he was born quite a few years ago, so he knows when he is being set up. DR claims there are no traps and that a food drop will be set up tomorrow morning. W says that he also wants to see Bruce Clark. DR says they'll deal with tobacco products and food first, and then Clark when they contact him. DR says that W can canvass the people inside whether they want to be reunited with their families on the outside. W also wants DR to look into the case against David Pena, who was charged with fishing.

DR asks how everyone's health is. DR says he'll call back tomorrow.

Tape Three - Aug. 29: W says he had a good sleep and hopes DR did too. DR says he did. DR says that Pena was remanded in custody until Sept. 18th. DR understands that Bruce Clark is in town and they're trying to locate him. DR asks if anyone wants to leave and W says his granddaughter wants to stay. DR wonders how cigarettes could come in. W suggests that Bill Lightbown could bring them in. W says that he thought that someone wanted to go out, but they changed their mind. DR asks that if Bruce can go in, where should he go. W says that Bruce should go to the log on the logging road. W is asking about phone calls in and DR repeats that his boss's concern is that there would be too many calls coming in. DR will call again.

Next call: DR says that he will be talking to Bruce Clark later. DR wants to talk about "cigarette exchange" - he wants to know if one or two people from the camp could come out and get them and the people would be guaranteed their safety. W says that a single person will be coming out of the camp named Stu. W describe Stuart's clothing and says that he is a native. DR says that Stu will be welcome out. DR still wondering if someone can come out to pick up the tobacco. W says that they also want Hi-8 videotapes. DR will look into this, as well as finding Bruce Clark. W says that Stuart wants to be picked up by his father, David Jules, a native constable from Adams Lake. DR asks if anyone else wants to come out. W says no. W says that Stu never had anything to do with anything - he just hung around camp and things got a little heavy for him.

Next call: DR says that Stu never made it out to the checkpoint. W says that he changed his mind when a helicopter flew over. He's back at the camp now and will wait till Bruce shows up. DR says that Bruce Clark (BC) is with him now. BC on. BC says that John told him to tell W that he shouldn't worry and the Creator is taking care of everything. BC also says that he's scheduled to come in the next day. W reminds him to bring Hi-8 video in with the smokes, so the world will see what is going on here. DR gets back on and says that they are planning on bringing BC out tomorrow.

W says that one of the boys spotted some of his men and a dog out there. W tells him that they should get some more training. DR says that they'll call tomorrow. W wishes him sweet dreams.

Tape Four - Aug. 30: W says that he's pissed off because they took so long to call and says they're playing games. DR says that BC is with him and wants to speak to W. BC asks what kind of smokes the camp wants. W tells him.

BC says that his visit into the camp has been approved in principle, but there are delays in getting the details sorted out. DR gets on and agrees that they're just sorting out safety details. DR claims that they're seeking a peaceful solution, but W says that only the Privy Council can get a solution.

DR tries to find out how many people there are in the camp and W laughs saying there's one behind every tree. Courtroom laughter. DR laughs and says that's a good answer. W says there may be a couple of hundred.

(DC has just walked in very slowly after a triple hernia operation and a vasectomy. He doesn't look very happy. What a trooper and a glutton for punishment.)

A male gets on the phone to say that they are there on their own free will. W says that that was a friend of his.

DR wants Stu to come out, but W says that he can come out with BC. Stu gets on and DR asks if he knows where the police checkpoint is. Stu doesn't. DR says it was a long walk. DR is reluctant to send someone out to the log for safety reasons and asks him to walk out. DR will call back to work out how to get Stu out. W suggests using a native constable. DR says he will call him back.

Next call: DR calls in and waits for a while before learning that W is in a ceremony. DR says that he will call back.

Next call: They're still waiting for W. DR asks if the two people have left the camp yet, but the female says he'll have to talk to W. DR says he will call back. Next call: W confirms that two people left the camp. DR says the two people were picked up and are in transit to the office. BC is on the way to meet them. W confirms that they were in ceremony to pray that everything goes their way. DR says they're still working on getting BC out there and W accuses them of jacking them around.

DR asks Percy (P) to come on. DR says that Madeleine Gregoire is there to speak to him. While waiting for Madeleine, P says that he was in ceremony. DR asks what his ceremony is called. P says prayer. Madeleine Gregoire (MG) gets on and asks if she can come to the camp to do prayers with him. MG wants to do prayers on the phone, but P says that wouldn't be right. MG wants to come in and do prayers with John (Stevens). P says that John isn't there in the camp. MG wants to come in. W gets on and says that she might not want to come in as they are ready to defend themselves. MG claims that the police won't do anything if she's in there. W wonders how she can come in. MG asks what she can do. W says to get the Okanagan people to support them. MG says she doesn't feel this is what the Creator wants them to do. End tape.

J welcomes DC back and says that he doesn't have to stand for him.

L/ The Crown has a witness this afternoon.

JF - Next witness (#60): Staff Sgt. Warren Forsythe (WF) - stationed in Trail and member of ERT there for two years. An ERT member since '92. Prior to Sept. 11, he was doing general duties in Gustafsen Lake area.

On morning of the 11th, he got instructions from Zulu. Went to area on driveway to Percy's lease. He and team were there to back up Vancouver ERT.

He knew of plan to disable red truck. He understood that if the occupants of truck were armed, truck would be disabled. If it wasn't, occupants would be chased down by Bison. He was south of data sheet and his role was to chase occupants should the red truck be disabled. He was 30 yards south of Percy's road.

He saw explosion and dust, heard some gunfire, and proceeded westbound. There was dust and eventually, he saw the nose of the pickup. He went west because of radio report. He went with dog master Barter and another ERT member. During this, he saw another dog master north of him also going west. They never went to lake and instead turned northbound because they were advised that a blue car was travelling eastbound on lakeshore heading for Tiger. He ended up on northeast end of lake by Lakeshore Road, west of 1000 Road intersection. This isn't where he intended to be. He intended to be further south than this.

During this he heard a lot of gunfire of various calibres. It sounded like it was coming from further west on Lakeshore Road. On small aerial photo, he shows where he was with Casault when he heard gunfire. This was in the first clearing west of Lion and Tiger intersection.

He had his M-16 and pistol on. Neither he nor others fired weapons. After more radio conversations, they went east along Lion to Tiger and then southbound to return to red pickup truck. He was aware of several hundred rounds being fired during all this. At one point, he heard several rounds coming over his head. This was west of Tiger, just north of red truck. He was five metres to side of road. Another five metres to west was treed area. He heard a "zing" of what appeared to be a bullet. He heard three to four rounds. He was with Casault, Pete Morris, and other members of Vancouver ERT whom he can't recall. When they heard rounds, they didn't fire.

When they got to red truck, he saw two weapons inside. He initially went to Percy's road to see if there were any other members from Nelson ERT after he met up with Vancouver ERT. Then he went to truck. The rifle he saw was in the truck with the butt down and the barrel leaning towards the driver's side. The AK-47 had the butt facing the driver's side and the barrel pointing at the foot area of the passenger side.

WF took out both weapons. He gave the rifle to Casault and WF took the AK. WF took clip out of AK and instructed Casault to do the same with rifle that was given to him. They put both weapons into the bush. Both rifles were loaded with a bullet in the breech. WF put the bullets he found in his pockets. Casault unloaded rifle and handed it back to WF. The clip was not in it now. He hid rifles in bush by sticking them under thick brush and placed some branches on top. This was just south of the red truck. He placed them there so he could pick them up later and so suspects couldn't find them.

Next he went back to where Vancouver ERT was, just a little north of disabled truck. WF checks notes.

He says his notes indicate that when he earlier heard rounds pass overhead, it was in a position he had stayed in for 10 minutes. He says he heard semi-auto fire, large calibre and small. Then they went back again to the red truck and saw spotlights and radios. He and Lightfoot and Casault got a call for backup. They went towards Lakeshore Road and met with Vancouver ERT in a ravine. They all went back to the driveway of Percy's lease.

He then went back to the red truck and seized two radios that were in the truck. He eventually handed them to Cst. Sangster, then went and retrieved hidden rifles which were still there and handed them over to an ERT member in an APC. Then he went back to cattle guard where he got radios back from Sangster and the rifles out of the APC. He made note of types, calibres and serial numbers. He reads serial number of Hungarian AK-47 and the same with the Parker Hale hunting rifle. He handed these over to Pete Marsh, who was coming out the bush that evening, while his team was staying in.

WF shown Ex. 116 - AK-47. He confirms this is the weapon he seized and the weapon he found with barrel pointing down in the truck. He says that the bullets weren't taped to the butt. Otherwise, it appears to be the same. Ex. 117 - Parker Hale is identified as one he seized from truck, butt down and barrel towards driver. He says that it appears to be the same. The only way he altered them himself was to remove the magazine from the AK-47 and unload it.

WF says he never discharged his weapon at all on Sept. 11. Time from ditching weapons and retrieving them was 45 minutes to an hour.

On Sept. 13, he was with Cst. Fraser and returned to red truck. It was in the same spot and in the same position. He seized the rear licence plate, a walkman from the bench seat, a scarf, a spotlight, a 12-gauge shell. He placed the exhibits in plastic bags and he identifies the 12-gauge shell he is shown. Also seized map, bank book, passport, driver's licence (all in Suniva's name), vehicle registration in name of Notnes, Kamloops bank book, receipt from B.C. government for $150 in Pena's name. He is shown receipt and he says it is the same. WF found pipe, newspaper article, Prince George hotel receipt, owner's handbook, Vancouver Sun. WF identifies a number of these exhibits in a bag. He turned this all over to Kembel at Zulu on the 15th. Also received a black ball cap from Lightfoot when WF was at Zulu. This was marked an exhibit and handed over to Kembel.

HR - WF only rode in APC to go from Percy's driveway to the cattle guard on the 11th. WF didn't note the time of explosion, but noted that he was picked up at 16:00 hours. He was riding in same kind of Bison that was parked earlier in Percy's driveway. The rounds he heard were close enough to hear, but admits this could have been 50 feet away.

Prior to disabling the red truck he was ordered to move 20 metres south from first position to avoid cross-fire. He says that there were members on the east side of the road and if anyone in the truck fired at them and those members had to return fire they didn't want to have any members on the west side, so they had to move either north or south of their position. He received this order to move south just after the red truck had gone north and was now going south. He says there were 14 members around at this point.

WF remained on foot throughout the day, except at the end. He says there was a lot of gunfire he heard. HR suggests he heard several thousand, but WF thinks there was only a couple of hundred. Some of it was semi-auto, some auto and some single shot.

When he heard the three or four rounds, he was just north of where truck was disabled - maybe 20 metres near some rocks where there were some Vancouver ERT members hunkered down. WF agrees that he knows that the dog was killed by three or four rounds, but WF says this happened a long time before he heard the other three or four rounds. On small aerial photo, he points to first clearing south of Lion on Tiger - he says that he was a couple of inches below that on the photo.

WF says that he made his statement on request of general investigators. HR reads from statement where WF says he heard that occupants were armed and then said he heard the explosion and heard gunfire. HR suggests this sounds simultaneous and WF agrees. HR begs to differ that it didn't happen together. HR says that the time of the red truck exploding wasn't written down. WF says he didn't know the time. HR says he could have cross-referenced the times, but WF says that he didn't guess at this. HÆ?-!0Ø#his day wasnÆ0#s hectic as others. WF: "In my 26 years of service, that was the most dangerous day of my career."

WF says that he didn't know where the rounds were coming from and when he couldn't see who was firing, he couldn't be sure that they weren't firing at him.

The document that HR has is not WF's notes. WF says it has been compiled from his notes. WF reads from his notes and HR asks him to find the reference to the gunfire. WF reads that he heard the shots and he and Mike Casault circled around to area where he thought fire had come from. He lost his other men, so he joined up with Vancouver ERT.

AB/ Without jury.

MA - says that to be clear, Glen wants all the money for this week. Also says that the money is late today, as it continuously is.

GW - wants it changed to every Thursday. J is fine with this.

MA - regarding disclosures, received more today. There is a note by Bass which says that the Prosecutor told him that the RCMP can't release part of its training tapes made at Gustafsen Lake because of the Stitchcomb precedent, which says that if they release some of the tapes, they have to release them all. Defense only learned the other day that a fellow was videotaping events throughout the standoff. MA has been sending letters to the Crown and has sent up to 30 letters now. MA wants a list of all the disclosures that the Crown isn't disclosing. Crown says that they are only releasing what the RCMP allows, but MA says it's not for the RCMP to decide. LB would like some time to respond to this.

Jury in.

HR cont'd with WF - HR reads from WF's notes that he and "Mike" were across road and heard lots of fire, but none of it seemed to be directed at them. WF knew at this time that the red Bison was disabled. He then heard a lot of fire for the next 10-15 minutes. He also heard massive gunfire for five minutes when he heard the Bison was disabled. He agrees that except for four or five shots, he was aware of no fire directed at him.

DC - (J allows him to remain sitting) - WF says he and Mike ended up east of lake and near clearing, which was further south then they expected to be. He agrees that they were split from their own team and carrying their weapons at port arms. He hadn't thought that they might be mistaken for unfriendlies during this time. He can't say that he was mistaken for an unfriendly, but agrees that he can't say he wasn't either. He returned from clearing back to red truck. He never returned fire because he never had a target.

Prior to disabling of truck, WF agrees that the radio communications were fairly clear. He agrees that it was less so following the explosion. He never took instructions to avoid cross-fire after this and relied on experience to avoid it.

When he ran into Vancouver ERT, it was by chance. Vancouver ERT were in gully heading south and WF was heading north.

GW - in yellow photo album, in picture of truck, WF agrees that the truck is in the same position as he found it. WF agrees that he saw later that the hood was blown back with great force. He saw it 40 minutes after the explosion. WF agrees that there were a number of ERT in the vicinity of the red truck immediately following the explosion. He remembers Sgt. Debolt, but not Brandt. GW suggests that in the 40 minutes between explosion and time he saw weapons, that an officer could have stood rifles up so others could see them. WF thinks that the weapons were in the same position that they were left in. GW notes that someone wasn't there throughout the whole time. WF agrees that in a normal crime scene, the police would insure that some one secured the scene as soon as possible. This didn't happen this time because it wasn't a normal crime scene.

In photo 1444, GW points to back of seat. GW suggests that someone could have searched behind the seat and placed the weapons on the seat for him to find. WF says that this isn't normally done, but agrees that this wasn't a normal situation. WF maintains that this isn't part of their normal training. He agrees that it was 40 minutes after explosion before he got there to find weapons propped up. WF speculates that by the positions of the weapons, the guns were positioned to be ready for the driver and the passenger to use.

In photo ?, of photo of inside of cab with glass smashed and glove box open, GW suggests that the explosion could have done this. WF says that he opened the glove box, but didn't do any of the other damage. He agrees that it's possible that the explosion could have dislodged loose items. WF never saw the Wescam video of the explosion. He didn't know that an APC slammed into the front of the truck. He agrees that the rifles would likely have been jarred by this. GW suggests that WF would expect the weapons to be knocked to the floor by the impact. WF doesn't want to speculate. GW suggests that the rifles looked like they were propped up. WF thinks they were propped up to be available for the occupants to use. GW suggests that an RCMP member could have innocently propped the weapons up. WF says that this is a question he should ask the other officers. GW has no more questions.

MA - WF was a Staff Sgt. at time of Gustafsen Lake. He was briefed on Rules of Engagement "somewhat". He heard of the safe zone, but doesn't know when. He doesn't know the boundaries of the safe zone. He was never given a map. He can't recall if anyone had ever told him where the boundaries were. WF says that after Sept. 11, he was told about a safe zone. He says that he wasn't part of the command structure - he was just part of the ERT team.

Prior to disabling the truck, Mann gave him a briefing. WF says that if occupants were unarmed in red truck, the Bison would chase them down. He was never given a written plan.

   * Day 59: Monday, October 21         * Day 62: Thursday, October 24
   * Day 60: Tuesday, October 22        * Day 63: Friday, October 25
   * Day 61: Wednesday, October 23