Trial, Week 15: Summary - November 7


WEEK 15: NOVEMBER 4 - 8, 1996

   * Day 68: Monday, November 4         * Day 71: Thursday, November 7
   * Day 69: Tuesday, November 5        * Day 72: Friday, November 8
   * Day 70: Wednesday, November 6


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by Settlers In Support of Indigenous Sovereignty


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Jury in. Cst. Eddie Shortman (ES) back on witness stand.

HR says that MA won't be here today, but his student will. The J welcomes her.

There is an extra sheriff positioned in front of the witness today. ES also came into the courtroom by the back door.

ST - ES confirms that there might be parts of his notes which didn't make it into the summary that he read to the jury yesterday. ES looks through his summary to check. ES agrees that there is a part of his notes he didn't read which said that Ron said that the police fired first. ES says that this was an oversight.

ES maintains that Ron said that when you shoot a cop, you get all kinds of attention. ST asks about Ron's alleged demonstration of a fight between AK-47s and M-16s. ES confirms that there may have been other words that Ron may have said that ES didn't relay. ST suggests that Ron told him that he was given a car muffler to pretend he had a weapon. ES doesn't recall this. ST suggests that Ron was talking about the difference between the semi-auto and full auto M-16s sounding like "tack, tack, tack, tack". ES doesn't remember this. ES agrees that Ron never told him he fired a weapon. ES agrees that he only interpreted that Ron had fired because of the way he was holding his hands during his story.

ES says that he has never fired an M-16 nor a semi-auto rifle. ES has never heard an M-16 either. ST suggests that all Ron did was describe that he was in the midst of a gun battle. ES says that Ron made hand motions to show firing. ES says that he doesn't recall if Ron used any words to show what the weapons sounded like. "I don't know if I interpreted that he was in a gun battle." ES says that Ron used the words M-16 or AK-47, but doesn't remember exactly what he said. All he remembers are the hand motions he used and what is in his notes.

ES says that he wasn't involved in Gustafsen Lake until he was called to do his cell plant operation. He ceased his involvement a day or two after Sept. 14th. ES says that the notebook he has is his personal notebook.

GW - ES agrees that he came to 100 Mile House and had a number of handlers. With regard to Ron, Cpl. Skippon was his initial handler. He agrees that he also did some work in the Williams Lake area prior to doing his work with Ron. ES says that he arrived in Williams Lake Sept. 1st.

ES agrees that his handlers had given him a "target" to approach regarding the Gustafsen Lake investigation. He was to contact Cpl. Haslett to gain intelligence. He was to investigate Ernie Archie, who had been in the encampment some weeks before ES arrived. ES understood that Ernie had been arrested with another person on a river. He didn't know who he was arrested by or with, or whether it was for weapons possession. He agrees that he was paired up with Cst. Bouvier. He was with Bouvier once to help meet Ernie.

ES met up with Ernie the first time on Sept. 1st. ES agrees that he was to gather intelligence, including the number, type and capabilities of weapons in the camp. His handler told him what to gather. ES agrees that he was able to get Ernie to talk. GW says that he was able to do this with his experience and says he is complimenting ES for coming into an area fresh and getting him Ernie to talk. ES agrees that sometimes it takes some time to do this. He says that Ernie eventually began to talk to him. ES says that he went to Ernie's house a number of times.

ES says he doesn't believe he asked Ernie about anything about Gustafsen Lake. GW asks ES to check his notes for any comments by Ernie regarding weapons in the camp. ES says that Ernie told him... LB stands up and asks under what basis this hearsay is being solicited. GW says that this is not for the truth of the matter, but rather for the background of the story. J is concerned about GW trying to prove whose weapons were in there. GW agrees that this won't be evidence of who owned the weapons, but what ES was told about the weapons. J allows the question. ES says that Ernie was going to court for some high powered weapons he had. GW asks if he is sure that Ernie didn't mention anything about weapons in the camp. ES sees a note that Ernie said that the police want to talk to him about two weapons he had at Gustafsen Lake. ES doesn't know if Ernie was interviewed about this. ES says that Ernie told him this on Sept. 4th. ES agrees that he wrote this note shortly after the conversation and the comments are accurate.

GW wants a video to be played so that ES can identify the person. A snippet of "Defenders of the Land" is played where Ernie Archie speaks. ES confirms that this is the Ernie Archie he spoke to. ES says that he had five meetings with Ernie. Some were at Williams Lake and some were at Ernie's place on the outskirts of town. ES never told him he was a police officer. ES agrees that he pretended to be sympathetic to Ernie. Ernie told him he was involved in the Sundance and that the police wanted to question him about a couple of rifles he had in the camp. ES finished this operation on Sept. 14th.

No further questions.

LB says that JF is calling the next witness, Cst. Russell, but she didn't expect that he would be needed so quickly. He recommends that the court stand down until Russell is ready. The court is stood down.

MB/ Without jury. GW argues that concerning Russell's testimony regarding JoJo's statement, he doesn't want the photos that Russell showed JoJo to be admitted. GW says that no one knows where these pictures came from, except maybe the CBC cameraman who took them. These photos could be from anywhere. GW doesn't want Russell to come out and say that he showed photos of JoJo. He doesn't mind Russell saying that he showed photos to him, but doesn't want him to describe the photos.

JF - says that she is only going to have the witness say that he put photographs in front of JoJo. JF understands that Russell told JoJo that he had video footage of him that was seized from the CBC. She says that Russell had seen the video and says that he recognized JoJo, so he asked that a photograph be made from it. Russell claims that he recognized the geographic features around the subject as being from around the camp. JF wants to show the photograph and 10 seconds of the video to the jury, even though the video wasn't shown to JoJo. She says that it is admissible, though she agrees with GW that she doesn't know when the video was taken other than that it was before it was seized. JF says that she will be putting the video in later through another witness.

GW asks who the other witness is. JF says Cst. Tassell. GW wants to know who filmed it. It could be file footage from Adam's lake. GW says it's strange because he doesn't think the CBC was in there before the 23rd. It sounds like it was taken before the roads were blocked. GW doubts that the CBC was even there at the time. GW makes it clear to the J that he doesn't mind having the conversation going in, but objects to the photo going in.

J says that the difficulty is that we have a photograph that was taken from a video. GW agrees that this is very vague and we don't know where the photo came from. GW says that JoJo never said that "that's me in the photograph". GW says that three vague photographs were placed in front of him - none of which are clearly JoJo.

JF says that she and GW agree that Russell told JoJo that there were videos taken in the camp that showed JoJo with a gun in his hand. GW says that JoJo was told there were tapes. JoJo refused to comment and was then taken back to cells. He was brought back, undressed, and then shown photographs. He pointed to a photograph and said that someone was with him. GW says that this is very vague. GW says that the only solution is to call the person in who took the video. GW says that this is a way of bringing in evidence through the back door. He says that it puts the Defense in an impossible position to go to CBC to find out who took it.

J asks GW that if JoJo said "that's me", then would GW allow it. GW says yes, but since he says "there was someone with me," then that is too vague.

ST - says that regarding the Nov. 12th voirdire, he discusses scheduling problems. ST suggests that since tomorrow deals with a voirdire that doesn't require some of his clients, that they be allowed to be excused and still be paid. J orders that they still be paid.

J asks about details regarding Russell's statement. GW says that he has no trouble with Russell talking about the video, he just doesn't want it shown, nor the photographs. He doesn't want them described either.

ST - asks that the matter of clients not having to be here tomorrow be extended to all the accused. J says yes.

GW - invites J to lead Russell to get to the point.

Jury in.

JF - Next witness (#65): Cst. Daniel Patrick Russell (DR) - 15 years on force. Currently in Vancouver Drug Section. In Aug. '95, he was in Kamloops. He arrived there to organize the files. He was also involved in the arrest procedure. When people came out, he told accused what they were arrested for and of their Charter rights. This was all videotaped. Accused were transported in Suburbans and escorted by ERT members.

He dealt with four accused. The first was Shelagh Franklin. SF stands and says that she doesn't need an officer to identify her as a criminal and will say to the jury that she was there. J says that she is not regarded as a criminal unless the jury finds her guilty. She says that she will tell the jury she was there and why. J agrees that it's not necessary for Crown to lead this. DR agrees that SF was the person who just spoke in the courtroom.

DR next arrested Garth Christopher, a youth. DR then arrested Flo Sampson. He recognizes her in the courtroom. DR says he finally arrested Trond Halle. He identifies Trond as being the man with several days growth of hair on his face. (What's he talking about? Trond shaved yesterday!)

J stands down the court for a minute to allow the court reporter to clear her throat and to deal with her coughing fit.

Jury brought back in.

JF - JF shows DR a photo book. DR agrees that the photos he's looking at are of SF and him. JF asks him to identify the photographs of him and Flo. He can't find them and JF realizes that they are missing. She finds extra photos and makes them exhibits. DR now identifies Flo. He also identifies photographs of Trond.

On Sept. 18, he was given the task to interview JoJo in the 100 Mile House detachment with his partner Tremblay. DR says he understood that JoJo had come from the camp. Tremblay was to write down what was said. DR was to converse with JoJo. DR says that he didn't use a tape recorder for JoJo because he felt that other accused didn't want to be tape recorded. GW doesn't want details of why he made this decision because he's editorializing. ST objects too. J feels the jury has a good grasp of why he didn't tape the interview.

DR says that he and Tremblay removed JoJo from his cell and interviewed him in a 10 x 10 foot room. DR and Tremblay identified themselves. They were plainclothed. JoJo was wearing two shirts, pants and socks. GW admits JoJo's identity. DR says that when JoJo was brought in, he appeared normal. DR says that they sat about six feet from JoJo. Interview lasted from 8:56 a.m. to 10:30 a.m.

At around 11:00 to 11:40 a.m., they had another interview. DR also made notes following the interviews, even though Tremblay was keeping notes. He agrees that his own notes are not verbatim. DR says that he has reviewed these notes and that earlier in the year, he and Tremblay had consolidated their notes.

When the first interview began, DR asked if JoJo had spoken to a lawyer. JoJo said that he spoke to a lawyer, Mr. Gibbs, and was told that he doesn't have to say anything. DR asks if he can check his notes to keep everything straight. J allows this.

When the interview began, JoJo said his name was "Crackshot" and preferred to be called that. DR says that he did most of the speaking at first. He told JoJo that the media were misinterpreting what was being said and he wanted JoJo to tell him the other side. JoJo said that he knew nothing and that he almost got his head shot off.

JoJo spoke of the Sundance ceremony and that he was involved in it. JoJo said that he was proud of what he did. He said that he had a criminal record "as long as both of you put together." JoJo got agitated and pounded his chest and said that they weren't going to crack him. DR says that he told JoJo that they weren't there to crack him and only wanted to hear his side of the story. JoJo talked about his mother and father.

JoJo talked more about the Sundance and DR asked if there were any sacred items they should know about. JoJo didn't know. JoJo said that he had a CB and a scanner in the trunk of his car and didn't want the cops to touch them. DR asked about weapons in the camp and JoJo didn't want to say anything. DR asked why there were white people in the camp and JoJo thought they were just supporters. DR asked why Trond was videotaping and JoJo said he didn't know why.

DR asked about shooting at the APC. JoJo said that he didn't know anything about it. DR asked how Suniva had been hurt and JoJo didn't know. JF asks that they break for lunch early. J says yes and he will have his decision regarding the photographs in a minute. Stood down.

Without jury.

J returns and gives his decision regarding admitting the photographs shown to JoJo. J says that without evidence of how these photographs were taken, the prejudicial affect will be higher than the probative value. J rules that the photographs will not be admitted through this witness. JF asks that the photographs and the video only be entered for identification. GW fine with this.

L/ JF cont'd with Cst. Russell - DR continues with his interview of JoJo. DR asked JoJo about John Hill, aka Splitting the Sky. JoJo had met him once, but hadn't seen him since. JoJo said he had military training out east with his brothers and hoped that he'd never have to use it again. DR told JoJo that he believed in his cause and felt that it was righteous.

DR says that Tremblay left. DR told JoJo that he was a warrior and had to do what he believed was right. Tremblay returned. DR asked JoJo if he was trying to kill cops or was he just "fucking around." JoJo didn't answer. Tremblay asked JoJo how he got the name Crackshot - because he was a good shot? JoJo said that this was so. Tremblay asked if JoJo was trying to kill cops or just trying to scare them. JoJo said yeah, this was how he operated.

JoJo said that he was just protecting his people and that they were afraid of the police helicopters. DR told JoJo that he had photos that he wanted to show JoJo. JoJo said okay. DR asked if JoJo wanted to talk to his lawyer. JoJo said no. JoJo was taken back to cells.

At 11:00 a.m., JoJo was back in the interview room. The police took his clothes and gave him paper coveralls. DR placed photographs in front of JoJo. JoJo pointed at number three and stated that there was someone else with him. This was the only photograph he remarked on. DR says that this was taken from a CBC videotape that was seized. The photograph was taken by playing a video in a machine and pausing it. He hit a button and a photograph was produced. DR viewed the video. JF wants it marked for identification. It is.

DR is shown photo #3. DR agrees that this is the photo that he showed to JoJo. JF wants it too marked for identification. It is. DR then told JoJo that people were misrepresenting what was going on and he wanted JoJo to tell him his side of the story. DR asked if JoJo was there as "a fucken criminal or as a warrior." DR said that the papers called him a terrorist, but said that he didn't believe that JoJo was a criminal. DR asked if JoJo was shot at by police. JoJo was silent.

Tremblay said that they had been honest with him. DR asked JoJo how many times he shot at police. JoJo held up a single finger. JoJo said he wasn't around for the APC shooting. DR says that JoJo said he fired a clip and a half and that he used a .303 British. DR asked if anyone didn't return from the camp. JoJo said that one guy was missing, but felt that he had been arrested by police.

DR asked if JoJo was being left out and JoJo said the people weren't talking to him. DR says that JoJo was unsatisfied by this. When DR asked if they would find his gun, JoJo said that he had hidden it. JoJo said he only fired at a helicopter once sometime around Mercredi's visit. DR asks if he was involved with the first shooting of a police officer when they were sneaking around the bush. JoJo said that he was by the fire then. He said a warning shot was fired.

JoJo said that he was sleeping during the day and patrolling all night. JoJo said that he ran to a bunker when the APCs came. DR asked how he would take out an APC. JoJo said with a .303, saying it would punch a hole through them.

He had seen lots of movies of APCs and knows all about them.

DR asked about the shooting at an officer. JoJo said that he fired at that guy a month ago and was aiming at the man's nose (indicating with his hand). He said that he picked up his casings. Then the interview ended.

DR says he was speaking softly, as he is now. JoJo also spoke softly. DR says that he believes that JoJo understood all of the questions he asked.

GW - DR confirms he interviewed JoJo on Sept. 18. He admits that on the 17th, he didn't know he was going to interview JoJo. He agrees that either Sgt. Shakey or Insp. Bass assigned him JoJo at around 9:00 a.m. on the 18th. DR knew that JoJo was in the camp. He looked at JoJo's record before the interview and agrees that it was mostly a youth record.

DR agrees that neither Shakey, Bass or Tremblay told him not to use a tape recorder while interviewing JoJo. DR agrees that he made this decision because other accused had refused to be tape recorded. DR checks his notes and says that the people arrested on the 12th of Sept. told him that they didn't want to be interviewed. DR agrees that JoJo was never given the choice of whether the interview should be recorded or not.

DR agrees that a tape recorded conversation is helpful because it gives the tone of voice, and whether or not a person understands a question. DR agrees that another form of getting information is to get a signed statement. DR agrees that this is a simple method. GW suggests that by not recording the conversation, it allowed DR the chance to write what he believed to be said. DR agrees that he wrote what he believed JoJo said. GW suggests that this method allows someone the chance to not let a jury find out what really happened. DR claims that he doesn't know what GW is getting at. DR agrees that he made the decision not to tape. He agrees that the sound of JoJo's voice will not be heard by the jury because it wasn't recorded.

DR agrees that when JoJo came in, he looked normal and alert. DR does say that JoJo didn't appear to be fairly intelligent. GW notes that DR told JoJo that he felt JoJo appeared to be fairly intelligent. DR says that if he would have said to JoJo that he was of low intelligence, then JoJo wouldn't have spoken to him. DR agrees that he lied to JoJo regarding his intelligence. DR agrees he did this on purpose. GW asks if there is anything in the RCMP manual that says you should lie to a person to keep him talking. DR says there is nothing about this in the RCMP literature regarding interview techniques. GW suggests that he knew specifically not to lie to a native person. DR says that he didn't know this because he had never heard this himself.

DR agrees that JoJo never came to him and said that he wanted to talk to the police. DR agrees that he and Tremblay had a plan on how to interview JoJo. He admits he had no evidence on who shot at Ray Wilby. DR says that he was trying to gain any evidence of people shooting at police officers.

GW suggests that because Tremblay was writing things down, he would be in a better position to be accurate about what was said. DR agrees. DR recalls JoJo saying, "you're not going to crack me, man" and pounded his chest. He says that this wasn't normal, but has had all kinds of reactions to being interviewed. DR agrees that JoJo told him he was tired and didn't want to discuss things. DR agrees that he could have got up and ended the interview right then. GW suggests that JoJo tried to stop the interview by telling DR that he didn't want to discuss it. DR agrees. DR also agrees that he never offered to JoJo that he could leave any time.

GW wants to get to another lie DR told JoJo. DR agrees he lied to JoJo more than once. DR had told JoJo that the police and media misunderstood him. DR admits that he didn't believe that JoJo was being misunderstood, but he told JoJo this because he wanted JoJo to comment on it. DR says that if JoJo was innocent, he would expect him to be angry.

GW wonders if DR would have felt comfortable being a passenger in a car driven by JoJo. "I've been driven by many people that were of low intelligence - I don't see the point of your question."

DR agrees that he lied to JoJo because he wanted to appear to be sympathetic with him. GW asks if this is three times he has lied to JoJo. "I don't know, I'm not keeping count." Laughter in the gallery. GW notes that DR lied about JoJo's intelligence, about being misunderstood and about being sympathetic to his cause. DR agrees. DR is not aware of any regulation that says that you should lie to people to question them.

DR agrees that first JoJo didn't want to discuss anything. GW suggests that JoJo then went through a period of no comment and denial for about 45 minutes. DR says that there was more said than that. GW agrees that there was more said than that, but points out that DR has only three pages of notes for those 45 minutes.

DR says he is 6'3" tall and a big guy. GW suggests he's muscular, but DR says that this is his opinion. GW then suggests that JoJo is quite skinny. DR agrees. When Tremblay stepped out, DR told JoJo that he was misunderstood and that he should listen to his heart. DR agrees that he was trying to get him to talk.

GW suggests that JoJo was afraid of DR. DR doesn't agree. He does agree that JoJo sometimes had his head down, so he can't say what JoJo was feeling. DR didn't know that JoJo has a very short attention span and that he sleeps regularly throughout the day.

GW notes that DR used the word "fuck." GW says that he is embarrassed to use this word in the courtroom, but asks DR who started to use that word. DR says that he began to use it. GW asks if he would use that word if he was questioning a white businessman. DR says it depends on the circumstances. In the courtroom, Flo -- JoJo's mother -- mutters, "You son of a bitch." A sheriff quietly talks to her to keep her quiet. She's not happy. DR says that he uses that kind of word because sometimes it inspires people to talk. He agrees that this set the tone of the interview.

GW suggests that they weren't getting anywhere when Tremblay got back from his break. DR agrees that up to this point, JoJo has said nothing about shooting Ray Wilby. DR agrees that he told JoJo that it looked like JoJo was trying to kill a cop. DR says that he meant any of the cops up at the standoff. DR agrees he didn't know which cop, or when or where. DR says that he believed that when JoJo was in the encampment, he was trying to kill cops. Then DR's note says "he didn't think so. He was scared shitless." DR agrees that this is another four-letter word he used.

By the time JoJo is first returned to his cell, JoJo has been with the officers for an hour and a half. At 11:00 a.m., they bring JoJo back to the interview room. DR told JoJo that they were going to remove his clothing for seizure. DR agrees that when JoJo was taking off his pants, DR doesn't know what is going through JoJo's mind. DR agrees that up until this point, JoJo has only offered no comment or denials. DR agrees that he is not aware of JoJo's past or if he has been abused.

(DR's shoulders have narrowed and slumped considerably since GW began his cross-examination.)

Sgt. Shakey and Insp. Bass never told DR to remove JoJo's clothing. DR says that he never specifically told JoJo why it was being seized.

DR agrees that JoJo's clothing was seized to check for gunpowder and for identification purposes. DR agrees that when people came out of the camp, they were photographed and videotaped. DR agrees that in the photo book, there are many views of what JoJo looks like. DR agrees that in the Detachment, JoJo is also photographed. This photograph from the Detachment is made an exhibit and shown to the jury.

DR says that there were videos taken of some incidents and they wanted to match clothing. He believed that the people in the camp were trading clothing. DR says that the clothes were packed in a bag. He doesn't know if it was sent for analysis or not. GW suggests that he could have seized the clothing as soon as the people were arrested. GW says that a person left in a cell will pick up residue from other people. DR says that there were two many people standing around and it wouldn't have been appropriate. GW suggests that it could have been done as soon as JoJo got to the Detachment. DR says that he wasn't involved in booking JoJo in.

GW suggests that DR is lying that the clothes were seized for gunpowder residue because they were never tested for that. DR maintains that this is what he thought they were being tested for. GW suggests that DR stripped JoJo to demonize him. DR says that he never stripped him. He had him remove his pants and shirts and then gave him interim clothing. Before the break, GW suggests that DR go over his notes for further questions.

AB/ Without jury.

J asks about schedule. JF says that they will call Cst. Toogood and Cst. Russell regarding Wolverine's statement. J wonders if the jury will be needed tomorrow. HR - says that this won't take all day. He only now got the statement and Wolverine wants to look at it. JF suggests that it's a lengthy statement and will take some time. HR thinks that he will be ready by 11:30 a.m. tomorrow. The J will tell the jury to be in by 11:30 then.

Jury in. J says that the jury won't be needed until 11:30 tomorrow.

GW cont'd with Cst. Russell - asks if DR has looked at his notes. DR hasn't. GW asks him to look now. GW reads from the summary that after DR seized JoJo's clothing, JoJo wanted to talk to his lawyer. DR says it's not in his notebook. GW suggests he didn't write it down because he didn't want people to know that JoJo asked for his lawyer. DR denies this. DR agrees that he has a duty to give an accused the opportunity to see a lawyer if he asks for one. GW asks DR if he knows that cases have been thrown out for not allowing accused to see lawyers, but J says that DR doesn't have to answer that.

DR recalls that JoJo said, "I should talk to my lawyer." DR agrees that Tremblay was in a better position to record the conversation. GW shows DR Tremblay's notes and DR agrees that this is Tremblay's handwriting. DR agrees that Tremblay wrote that JoJo said he should talk to his lawyer.

DR says that to the best of his knowledge, he thought JoJo's lawyer was not available because he was at a press conference at the Red Coach Inn.

DR says he told JoJo this. The lawyer JoJo referred to was Mr. Gibbs. DR agrees that the previous night, he hadn't kept tabs on Mr. Gibbs.

On the day of the interview, he says he can't remember who told him that Gibbs was at the Red Coach Inn. GW asks if DR doesn't remember testifying earlier this year that his partner told him this. DR doesn't remember what he testified to. GW reads from the transcripts from June 18, 1996. DR agrees that at that time he was told to tell the truth and that he did. DR testified then that Cst. Tremblay told him that Gibbs was at a meeting just before going into the interview room. DR claimed then that he talked about it then because they wanted to be ready should JoJo want to talk to his lawyer. DR agrees that this is what he said in June.

DR says that he understood the questions. GW says then this is what happened, that Tremblay told him that Gibbs was in the Red Coach Inn. DR now agrees that this is what he said. He says that he forgot. GW says that Tremblay has since testified and puts it to DR that Tremblay never told DR this. DR says that this is what he recalls. DR denies lying to JoJo that he knew where his lawyer was. GW suggests that he has lied four times now.

GW wants to read a letter from Mr. Gibbs and asks DR to shed some light on it. JF objects and J agrees that GW can't read this letter to DR. J says that GW may suggest things based on the letter. GW tries to get DR to look at the letter. J: "Don't give him a back door to get it in when I'm offering a front door." GW laughing, "I'm just seeing if you're sleeping, your honour."

GW puts it to DR that Gibbs was in Williams Lake and that he had an auto tel and a pager in his car. DR doesn't know this. GW suggests that Sgt. Doug Hartl was with Gibbs in Williams Lake, but DR says he knows nothing about Gibbs being in Williams Lake. GW suggests that DR never investigated the whereabouts of Gibbs because he didn't want to get the answer he would get. DR denies this. He also denies that he lied to JoJo about the whereabouts of his lawyer. GW suggests that he also lied in this court that Tremblay told him where Gibbs was. "I have never lied to this court."

GW suggests that DR knew that the interview was falling apart when JoJo asked for his lawyer. DR disagrees. He says that he offered the phone and a phone book to JoJo to phone another lawyer. DR admits that he never considered whether JoJo could read or not, or even operate a telephone.

DR agrees that up to sometime after 11:00 a.m., JoJo made no comments about anything. Then after his clothes have been removed and he has been denied his lawyer, DR agrees that he told JoJo that the media had called them terrorists. DR agrees that he didn't believe that these people were true terrorists. He says he believes that terrorists are very well trained or funded and he didn't believe that these people were well trained or funded. GW smiles, "I completely agree with you and I thank you for that."

DR agrees that he said this to show sympathy for JoJo to get him to talk. Tremblay told JoJo that he wasn't trying to fuck with his mind.

GW reads that DR asked JoJo how many times he fired at a helicopter and DR says that JoJo held up one finger. JoJo denied firing at APCs. When asked about shooting at police in the bush, DR says that JoJo said they were only returning fire. When JoJo said he was returning fire from a gulley, DR says he believed that JoJo was referring to shooting at APCs. GW says that earlier, JoJo said that he hadn't fired at APCs. DR believes that the second statement was true. GW asks what gulley JoJo could have been talking about.

DR says that there were many gulleys in the area that he could have referred to.

Later in his conversation, DR asked JoJo about the earlier shooting in August. JoJo told him he had fired three shots at the officer and was aiming for the bridge of his nose, but the officer moved too quickly. Then JoJo ran. GW points out that there is a part of the interview where JoJo said that he was at the fire when officers were sneaking through the bush. JoJo said that he fired a warning shot. DR agrees that JoJo mentioned this incident two separate times. GW points to the large aerial photo at where the fire was at the camp. DR says he doesn't know where Wilby was when he was fired at. DR says that he never interviewed the six or seven ERT members involved in the shooting, but understood that only one shot had been fired. DR agrees with GW's statement that "this man of low intelligence" told DR he fired three times. GW suggests that either the ERT members were wrong, or JoJo was wrong. DR claims that he wasn't concerned about how many shots were fired, only for JoJo to keep on talking.

DR says that he didn't submit how many shots JoJo said he fired to the readers in Kamloops. He says that he told a superior of what JoJo said an hour after he got the information from JoJo. DR says that the senior investigator was Insp. Bass. Bass never asked DR to check out the trajectory of a shot taken from the fireplace to Wilby's position. DR never spoke to the ERT members about how this shot had taken place.

GW suggests that no shells were found around the scene of Wilby. DR agrees that this is what he understands. DR denies that the interview ended as soon as JoJo told him that he had shot at a police officer in the bushes. DR says that he continued to ask him questions, but didn't ask who was in the camp with him or what time he fired the shots. DR says he asked JoJo what he did with the shell casings, but admits that JoJo never handed over any casings. DR never asked JoJo how many ERT members he saw. DR says that he didn't conclude the interview as soon as JoJo said he fired at a police officer. He says that he asked him again about the shooting.

Regarding the APC shooting, DR agrees that JoJo initially denied being involved. Then JoJo said he used a clip and a half. JoJo then talks about seeing films about APCs and about bullets going through them. DR agrees that JoJo denied several times that he was involved in the APC shooting. DR agrees he never asked who JoJo was with during the APC shooting or where JoJo was when the two people were coming across the lake. DR agrees that he isn't aware of any bullets going through the APC. DR recalls that JoJo was talking about having a scanner in his car, but says he never believed or disbelieved that he had a car. DR says that he never went and checked out this car, whether there was a CB or scanner in the car. DR says that he only checks things out that are pertinent to his investigation.

DR agrees that the only evidence he has of JoJo being at the scene of Wilby's shooting is what JoJo told him. DR says that he never checked the statement any further. DR denies that JoJo was vulnerable, but agrees that he was of low intelligence. DR agrees that he used profanity with JoJo. GW suggests that DR wouldn't let JoJo go until he got what he wanted. DR disagrees. GW suggests that DR has manipulated a person with low intelligence and he knows it. DR denies this. He says that he only recorded what JoJo told him about shooting at police. He denies lying to JoJo about the whereabouts of Gibbs. He says Tremblay told him this.

HR (for MA) - When DR interviewed Glen Deneault, he was with Tremblay again. DR says that the purpose of the interview was to find out how many and what type of guns were in the camp, to find out what type of threats the police faced. DR checks his notes, and says that Glen didn't want to talk about any of these things. JF objects that the Crown isn't leading this.

HR says that he is only asking generally. DR says that Glen didn't ask to speak to a lawyer, only that he had spoken to a lawyer who told him that he didn't have to say anything. DR claims that he wasn't asking about criminal offenses, only about the type of guns being used.

DR says that Glen got up and finally left. HR asks if DR told Glen that he would kick his ass. DR says that this is a lie. HR asks why DR kept asking Glen questions for ten minutes when Glen didn't want to speak to him. JF objects and would like the jury to leave. HR says that they don't have to leave. He's only asking why they didn't let Glen leave after one minute instead of ten minutes. The J allows the questioning to continue in front of the jury.

DR says that Glen got up after ten minutes and left. DR denies that Glen said, "I want to talk to my lawyer." He says that Glen said, "I don't want to speak to you." DR says that he felt it was important to know what kinds of weapons were used.

SF - says that she has some questions. It's 4:05 p.m. now. J tells DR he'll still be needed. He tells the jury that they're not needed until 11:30 a.m. tomorrow. The rest of us are back at 10:00.

   * Day 68: Monday, November 4         * Day 71: Thursday, November 7
   * Day 69: Tuesday, November 5        * Day 72: Friday, November 8
   * Day 70: Wednesday, November 6