Trial, Week 15: Summary - November 8


WEEK 15: NOVEMBER 4 - 8, 1996

   * Day 68: Monday, November 4         * Day 71: Thursday, November 7
   * Day 69: Tuesday, November 5        * Day 72: Friday, November 8
   * Day 70: Wednesday, November 6


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by Settlers In Support of Indigenous Sovereignty


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

Madame Registrar has asked for the website address [SISIS note: we assume this means our site at]. Her husband just got on the web.

JF - says voluntariness is not an issue here at this voirdire - just a section of the Charter. Cst. Toogood and Russell will be brought in.

JF - Next voirdire witness: Cst. John Toogood (JT) - 15 years on force. Presently stationed in Kamloops, as he was in '95. On Sept. 19, he was tasked with interviewing Wolverine - William Ignace. He did this in the Williams Lake Detachment interview room at 10:50 a.m. He had the guard remove Wolverine from his cell and had him brought to the interview room. JT says he was with Cst. Russell at the time. JT identifies Wolverine in the courtroom.

JT says that he introduced himself and they talked about Toogood's last name. JT says that the plan with Russell was that JT would do most of the talking and Russell would take notes. Russell spoke at one time for 8-10 minutes. The interview lasted just under three hours. JT says he took notes after the interview. He is allowed to review his notes to help his memory.

The interview began at 10:51 a.m. JT, Russell and Wolverine (W) were the only ones in there. The interview began with introductions. JT gave his and Russell's card to W. W said that the law had to be addressed and that the native people have been oppressed too long. JT told W that he agreed with W and said that he admired him for standing up for his people. W said that he didn't have a lawyer with him, but wanted Bruce Clark. W said that he wasn't allowed to see him. JT says that when W said that, JT didn't respond to that comment. JT says that W then began to speak about the law. JT told W that he wanted to tape this, but W wasn't happy about this. He said he only wanted to talk off the record.

JT told W that Clark wasn't available because he was in psychiatric remand, but offered another lawyer. W said he couldn't use another lawyer because B.C. didn't have jurisdiction and this was a United Nations matter. JF asks how JT became aware of Clark's whereabouts. JT said he heard this around the police trailer. HR doesn't want to hear rumours of Clark's whereabouts. J wants to hear JT's basis for his understanding of Clark's whereabouts. JT says he heard this about Clark from other members. He heard this on the 18th or 19th of Sept. He understood that psychiatric remands happen in Vancouver and last 30 days, unless the court orders them back, and that people are checked for their mental abilities. JF asks if JT believed he could contact Clark. HR objects that this isn't an issue. He says that the way an officer makes a lawyer available is by using the phone. HR says that what the J has to do is decide if JT did anything about trying to contact a lawyer. HR says that JF is trying to tailor the evidence to fit Section 10 of the Criminal Code. J says that this can be crossed later and lets the question in. JT says that he believed there was no way to contact Bruce Clark.

JT says that he told W that Canada has taken the natives' land, culture and language away. W then began speaking in a foreign language, which JT believed to be W's native tongue. JT continued talking about the residential schools and how they didn't teach parenting skills or parental values. W said he went to a residential school in '76 or '78.

W said that they were being called squatters on their own land and JT said that they would get their chance to say this in court.

W again asked for his lawyer Clark. JT said he wasn't available. W said that John Stevens said that Clark was the one lawyer to use. JT said Clark wasn't available. W said that Clark had 11 cases in the Supreme Court and they were all turned down. W said he trusts no governments and believes judges, lawyers and police are part of a New World Order. He said their case is up in the United Nations. W said he wanted a paper that he served to a JP. W wanted Clark again, but JT said he wasn't available. W then wanted Ramsey Clark, former Attorney General for President Johnson. W talked about the hunger and the suffering his people have endured and said that it won't stop here - other people will continue. He stood on his rights on his land.

At 11:17 a.m., JT read W his Charter and went over it with W. He told him he was arrested for mischief and attempted murder and that he can have a lawyer. W didn't respond. JT told him that there is a 24 hour legal aid service available and asked if W understood this. W said that this is all part of the conspiracy, as is the B.C. Law Society. JT says that he read all of the warning from a card, except for the part about what charges W had against him.

JT talked again about how terrible the residential schools were. W spoke about the diseased blankets that had been given to the people. He also spoke about how Mulroney stole 20 million dollars from the people. He spoke about the law and how he believes in the hereditary chiefs.

Then W said that the RCMP are the ones who started it all and then spoke of the Constitution and that the camp was on a burial ground. He said they had cordoned off the burial ground. He spoke about the treaty process and that natives shouldn't get involved because they already owned the land. He said the whites were trying to separate the nations to make them fight with one another. He didn't know why this was happening because they were all one nation with one language.

They then spoke of the Sundance. W said that there is four days of fasting and dancing and that the site was chosen after three people dreamed of it there. He said that he is being called a squatter and doesn't like being called a squatter on his own land. This was W's first year dancing. The important people are the Sundance chief, the lead dancer and the medicine man. They spoke about medicine bags.

W spoke about Glen Kealey and said he didn't believe in Trilateral Commission agreements because they are part of the New World Order. He said he was asked by Percy to come up there because of his knowledge of the law. W said he had "them" beat either way, whether they came out alive or in body bags. "The RCMP declared war on us." He said the rednecks started it first. JT asked who the rednecks were. W said the cowboys and the RCMP. He said that Canada is ruled by law and when the law was not obeyed, then there was no law. W said he didn't collect welfare because he didn't believe in it, but did collect old age pension because he felt he earned it.

JT asked if violence was planned from the start. JT doesn't recall W's answer. JT asked about the weapons in the camp. W didn't answer, but asked about the RCMP tanks and about the .50 calibre machine guns. He then spoke about the truck being blown up going for water and about the unarmed woman being shot. JT said he was concerned about both sides of the story and said it was important to understand why things occurred. W said it occurred because the law wasn't being followed.

W spoke about John Stevens, who brought the camp out.

W suggested that the police speak to Clark about Constitutional law because of his great knowledge of the law. W suggested that the police were breaking the law and not because they cut off the water to the camp. W said he wouldn't speak anymore because it might be used against him. W said that a U.N. observer should be present. This would allow him to be able to seek advice on whether to talk and to ensure that it was brought up in the U.N.

JT told W that if he was being chased down by a tank, then he would be justified in defending himself. There was no response. JT asked about W's relationship with Percy. W said that the two had gone to the U.N. together. Percy had been living on the land and was the keeper of the Sundance. W then spoke about the Lyle James crew who said they were going to hang a red skinned nigger. W said that he was in Adams Lake at that time.

JT says that W agreed that he was the leader and that he only expected this to go to the Privy Council, not to have thousands of rounds shot at them, "or something like that, I don't know what, I'm just a farmer." They spoke about the girl being shot from across the lake.

Cst. Russell then spoke for about eight minutes. JT took as many notes as possible during this time until 12:50 p.m. JT doesn't believe he said anything during this time.

JT started speaking again and W got quite vocal, saying the government was owned by the Rothschilds. JT said that the Indian people had suffered because of the schools and church. W said that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and that the church should just leave the natives alone.

JT again said there were two sides to every story. JT talked about how a few radical people in a group can lead the others astray and used the apple analogy saying that a few bad apples can lead one to paint everyone with the same brush. JT then spoke about how things got out of hand. W then spoke about the law and how the property was still owned by the natives. JT then talked about the war spear. W denied that it was a war spear - it was a spiritual thing. They then spoke about jurisdiction and what Clark had told W.

JT asked why W had shot at the APC - was he protecting himself? W asked, "When that thing is coming at you at 120 mph, and knocked over a tree on you, what would you do?" JT said, "I don't know." JT then asked W if this is why he shot at the APC. W didn't answer. W then spoke about Dosanjh and how JT was trying to get him to say things that would be used against him. W said that Dosanjh and the PR person were the problem.

JT then changed the tack of the conversation. W said they were trying to have a peaceful camp, but the RCMP started everything. W said that the women did not shoot the guns, they did the cooking. He said there were young people in the camp, including JoJo, Sheila and his granddaughter, Mindy. W said that JoJo had an old .22 to protect what he believes in. W said that none of the young people were injured. JT asked about any people missing and about the blond person who was shot. JT asked if this was why W shot at the tank to protect himself. W said, "That's right, what would you do?" W spoke about the tank having thick armour plates and not being pierced.

JT told W to think about the conversation they were just had and about the hows and whys of what happened. That was the end of the interview. JT says that he and Russell remained seated throughout the interview. JT says that W mostly remained seated, but sometimes stood up. W was not restrained.

JT says that he spoke softly, as he is now. He says that W mostly spoke softly, but sometimes got more passionate about what he was talking about.

JT says that he didn't believe there was anything he could do to facilitate getting Ramsey Clark or a U.N. observer.

HR - He asks if JT could have gotten on the phone to his senior officer to find out if something of this nature could be arranged. JT said he didn't. HR suggests that this wasn't your average situation since it was dealing with this kind of person who had these kinds of beliefs. JT maintains that he has interviewed thousands of people and they are all unique. He agrees that this was a unique conversation.

JT identifies Russell's notes, but isn't sure when they were made. JT believes that Russell made his notes first, which JT read to assist his recollection of the interview. JT then wrote his notes. JT says that the document with three pages in it is what JT wrote when Russell was speaking, at the time of the interview. JT says that his main notes were written at 7:15 p.m. The interview ended at 1:30. He says that there is about a five hour time span between finishing the interview and finishing his notes. JT confirms that Russell's notes must have been completed before finishing his own notes - sometime in the afternoon.

HR pulls out a report prepared by the Crown, but JT has never seen this before.

JT confirms that he spoke to W about the misery of the natives. HR suggests JT was having W on, pretending to be sympathetic with him in order that W speak to him. JT claims he was trying to build a rapport. HR suggests that JT didn't really believe that the Indians had it so bad and that he had a conventional belief that the Indians had their ups and downs, but generally had it alright now. JF objects to having JT's beliefs brought out, but J says that this is relevant.

HR suggests that all JT wanted to know were the criminal matters dealing with W's attempted murder charges. JT agrees. HR suggests that JT wasn't at all interested in the Privy Council or anything else. JT maintains that he wanted to know not only what happened, but why things happened. W asks JT to speak up a little. HR asks if JT really wanted to understand about the burial grounds or about the law. JT said that he had a better understanding afterwards about these things.

HR is wondering about the topics discussed, ranging from the residential schools, to the land being taken, etc. HR asks if these were just raised to con W. JT asks HR to be more specific.

HR goes through JT's notes. JT says that when he said that he admired W because he made a stand for his people, it was an honest statement. HR asks about JT's past work and if he had ever told people before that he admired them. JT finds it hard to answer. HR suggests that this was a con because he was investigating W for attempting to murder a police officer. JT says that he admired W for making a stand for his people, not for shooting an officer. He says that he didn't admire him for the way events unfolded with regard to the violence used.

J asks if this is a good time for a break. HR says that this will take longer than expected. J suggests that they bring the other witness in for the jury and then send the jury home. He'd also like some feedback regarding the end of the trial.

MB/ J asks about the counsel's idea of when the trial might end.

ST - says that it could be as early as Christmas, but there are too many variables.

GW - says that he's looking at six to eight witnesses, six of whom are experts. He's looking at the end of February to be sure.

JF - says they see the Crown's case being finished by the first week of December.

Jury in and Cst. Dan Russell (DR) back on witness stand.

SF - DR agrees that he had a lot of information when he was questioning JoJo. He had heard from the press and various people that the camp was saying that they were standing on the law. He had also heard that Lyle James had tried to evict Percy and his family from the land. SF suggests that Percy was the western equivalent of a priest and that the cowboys were trying to push him around. DR says that he was only aware of James trying to evict him.

SF tries to ask whether he realizes that to prevent people from observing their religious followings is to commit genocide. J says that this isn't a question for the witness and the law is for the J to comment on. "We've been through this a number of times and my ruling is the same as before."

DR agrees that he had asked JoJo about sacred items at the Sundance arbour. DR doesn't know that the spiritual ties are intrinsically linked to the land. DR agrees that he had lied to JoJo about his intelligence. SF suggests he lied when he told JoJo that he wasn't trying to fuck with his mind. DR disagrees. DR agrees that he told JoJo that the camp was engaged in a just cause, but says that he didn't believe it. He was only saying that to get JoJo to talk. SF asks what evidence he has that makes him believe that it wasn't a just cause. J says that the evidence is for the jury to decide on.

DR knows of George Findley, but not of his report. DR knows that Findley had wrote a number of reports "during the standoff." SF points out that there was no standoff then. J says that this isn't a debate. DR hadn't heard that Findley was pulled from the investigation. SF says that he wouldn't be told this because he had been led to believe that it was a criminal investigation. J says that this is not a proper question. Wolverine says that "this is how it all started."

DR agrees that he believed that JoJo was involved in the shooting of officers. He says that he believed that JoJo was a warrior because he said that he had trained with his brothers out east.

SF suggests that DR is part of a foreign system that is intent on destroying the native people. J says that this is not a proper question. SF: "I'm not finished the question." J: "It's not a proper question." Wolverine: "Do you want to hear the truth or not?"

DR says he never investigated the legal position that the camp occupants had spoken about. SF suggests that he had never read the Royal Proclamation, which is enshrined by the Constitutional law he is supposed to uphold. DR says that he has heard of the Proclamation, but has never read it.

SF asks if he has any legal evidence to show that JoJo wasn't standing on his rights to protect his people. J says that this is not a proper question for this witness. SF suggests that DR never let JoJo speak to his lawyer.

DR says that he offered him any other lawyer other than Gibbs.

SF asks if lying to the accused is part of the RCMP intent to act truthfully and peacefully. J says that it isn't a proper question. SF asks if DR would be offended if he was called a criminal. J says that his feelings are irrelevant. SF asks if he realizes that the RCMP were participating in genocide by invading the camp. DR says that he wasn't aware of the RCMP doing anything illegal. DR agrees that he understood the camp was asserting that the RCMP were illegal in invading the camp.

DR says that the RCMP are accountable to the Solicitor General. DR doesn't know the name of the Solicitor General.

SF notes that JoJo said that the RCMP helicopters were trying to drop bombs on the camp. DR didn't know of this happening and never investigated it.

SF asks if DR was aware that JoJo was "active" at 6:00 a.m. on Sept. 18th. DR isn't aware of this. DR says that the guard would have recorded it if JoJo was removed from his cell.

SF asks if they took JoJo's clothes with the intent of terrorizing him. DR says that he was only seizing clothing. SF says that she was told to strip in a shower to have her clothes seized. She asks why JoJo wasn't allowed to strip in the privacy of his own cell. DR says that there was a person in his cell and the most private place in the detachment was the interview room. SF: "With you and Tremblay in the room with him?" DR: "Yes."

SF asks if DR has any evidence to contradict the camp's legal right to make a stand on their own land. J says that this is not a proper question. SF: "Well it's got to be a proper question somewhere!" J: "It's not a proper question to this witness." SF says that it's not a proper question when there are allegations that the system is corrupt. J: "I and the jury know these are your beliefs and I'm sure we'll hear them again."

DC - he tries to ask about DR's questioning of Glen. JF objects, saying that questions cannot be led in areas of a statement that the Crown didn't lead. DC says that there was no statement made and he's just getting at what happened. J allows him to continue.

DR agrees that Glen didn't want to answer any questions and then Glen left. DR looks at his notes and DC notes that it says that Glen stood up and said that he either wants to go back to his cell or to have DR to phone his lawyer. DR says that Glen didn't want to talk to his lawyer - he wanted DR to phone his lawyer. DC says that yesterday, DR testified giving the impression that Glen had just got up and left without mentioning a lawyer. DR agrees that there was more to it than that.

Russell dismissed.

J tells jury that they won't be needed until Tuesday. HR says that he has withdrawn his application regarding W's statement to Toogood and Russell, in case that has any bearing on the J's decision to release the jury. J says it will, with a smile. J tells the jury that the Crown will be finished by December, but expects that the trial may continue into February. There are a few nods by the jury members.

J confirms with HR that his application has been withdrawn. HR agrees. JF would like a break before continuing. J will begin after lunch.

L/ SF says to Trond that ten minutes before John Toogood is to testify in front of the jury, the defense receives another batch of disclosures - namely, Toogood's other notes that don't deal with his interviews. SF says that this is business as usual in this trial.

J and jury in.

JF - Next witness (#66): Cst. John Toogood (JT) - 15 years on the force. Became involved with the investigation of Gustafsen Lake in Sept. '95. On Sept. 19, he was to interview Wolverine (W) that morning with Cst. Russell.

JT has a big, droopy mustache and hang dog eyes.

JT goes over the interview with Wolverine. It is exactly the same as that in today's voirdire. No other questions by the Crown.

HR - JT says that HR has all of the notes to deal with Wolverine's interview. JT says that the interview lasted 2 hours, 50 minutes. HR notes that JT went over this conversation in 35 minutes in court today. JT agrees that this conversation was fairly constant. HR asks where the remaining two hours went. JT says that he wasn't recording the conversation, Russell was. JT says the conversation began at 10:51 a.m.

HR asks why JT didn't give W his Charter warning right at the start of the interview. JT says that W would have received his rights when he was arrested. JT admits that he has no first hand knowledge of W getting his rights read to him. HR asks if it isn't customary to give a warning right from the start. JT says he later gave it. HR: "What do you do, get a confession from him first and then give him a warning to get it in?" JT maintains that he gave W a warning. JT says that they had spoken about getting a lawyer near the beginning, but never gave W the formal rights until 11:17 a.m. JT agrees that he spoke to W for 25 minutes before giving him the warning. JT tries to say that this was the "official warning", but HR snaps that there is only one type of warning. JT agrees that it wasn't given to W until 25 minutes later.

HR suggests that JT misled W about Clark's location. JT says that he heard about Clark being remanded for psychiatric remand on either the 18th or on the morning of the 19th. The interview happened on the 19th. HR says that the fact was that Clark was in the basement of the lockup in the building. JF objects to question and asks that the jury step out.

Jury out.

JF - says that she objects because HR is saying that Clark was available that morning in the same building. She says that she provided HR with the holding order and has learned that Clark was transferred early that morning and the jury may be misled to believe that Clark was available.

HR is about to speak when W begins to talk. HR: "Will you let me deal with this?" W: "We might as well get the truth out." HR says that JF doesn't know where Clark was and that there are enough people here in this courtroom to agree that Clark was in jail and that's why W asked for him.

HR says that it's not enough for LB to claim that Clark wasn't there, unless LB wants to be called to the stand. HR says that he is basing this on his client, who was there that morning.

Jury brought back in.

HR - JT says that he never checked the whereabouts of Clark. He believed that Clark had been remanded for psychiatric remand. JT says that there was no doubt in his mind that Clark wasn't available. HR asks how he can have no doubt when he never checked. JT says that he had heard this from members of the investigation team. JT says that he wanted W to have counsel, but understood Clark wasn't available. HR suggests that a lawyer is available on the phone. JT isn't sure, but thought that Clark wouldn't be able to talk if he is remanded. HR agrees that Clark was on psych remand because he was acting up, but JT never checked to see if he was available. JT says that he has never dealt with a lawyer in psych remand and HR has no doubt about this - "maybe more lawyers should be in psych remand, I don't know." Laughs.

JT agrees that he heard W ask to get Ramsey Clark and admits he did nothing to get him. JT says he told W that any other lawyer was available. HR wonders if JT has his role confused because he was making a legal judgement for W. HR says that JT turned down W a number of times to speak to Bruce Clark. JT agrees. HR sees from JT's notes that W said that he didn't want another lawyer, he didn't trust any other lawyer and that he only wanted Bruce Clark. JT agrees that this was what he said in a nutshell. HR sees that W didn't want anyone but Bruce Clark or Ramsey Clark. JT agrees. JT agrees that he didn't think there was a conspiracy amongst lawyers, but admits that he felt that W genuinely believed that.

JT says that he and his partner were sent in to interview W to investigate criminal activity arising from the standoff. He agrees his goal wasn't to talk about native problems, but to get information on trespassing, mischief and attempted murder. JT agrees that attempted murder is the most serious of the issues here. JT says that his goal was to find out what W's involvement was. HR suggests that JT's talk of Indian school was just to con W along and to pretend he was sympathetic to the natives. JT says that he is genuinely sympathetic to the abuses done to natives through the residential schools.

HR asks JT to find parts of his notes in which he was building rapport. JT asks if HR means where he starts by saying that he admired W for making a stand. HR says yes.

AB/ HR cont'd with Cst. Toogood - JT says that he spoke to W about the troubles faced by natives, like the destruction of the culture and language. HR suggests that this occurred before the warning was given. JT says that he believes that natives were oppressed for hundreds of years by residential schools and that their culture had been taken away. HR suggests that W said the same thing by saying that he couldn't trust the government and that these things destroyed the people. JT says that a lot of these processes contributed to the destruction of the native people. HR says that JT takes an ambivalent approach to his job. JT maintains that he tries to find information about criminal offenses. HR suggests that JT was just egging W on so that he would talk. JT says that he is genuinely sympathetic to the native troubles.

HR suggests that JT tried five times to get admissions from W about shooting at the APC. JT says that he only did this three times. HR says that JT did this so that he could achieve his objectives to get an admission. JT says that it was one of the objectives, as well as to find out what happened.

JT says that he made these notes between the end of the interview and 7:00 p.m. He agrees that he made his notes with the assistance of reading Russell's notes. HR asks if this isn't a little unusual to make notes off another officer's notes. JT says that this isn't too unusual when you have two people and no tape recorder.

HR asks why JT even made a set of notes when someone else was taking notes of the interview. JT says that he likes to make notes too. HR wonders why he just didn't write his own notes then from his own memory. JT says that this is just how it happened.

HR pulls out a report from the Crown which he says is made with Russell. JT doesn't know about this report. HR suggests that Russell would have been in a good position to write this report, since he was writing things down. JT doesn't know how to answer this, so HR says he doesn't have to.

HR has another set of notes that he received today. JT says that these new notes have nothing to do with his interview with Wolverine. HR reads from the new notes. There is a question, "did anyone else get hit other than the girl?" There is another question about shooting at the APC. HR suggests that this is another question to Wolverine about the APCs. JT says that this isn't what he asked - it's what he wrote when Russell was talking to Wolverine. The notes also say that W denies any involvement. There is yet another question about the APC and whether W was there to shoot policemen or to protect himself. HR says this is five times now that W was asked about the APC. Wolverine replied that he's just a farmer.

HR reads from the notes that Russell said that he was interested in both sides. Then they talked about Bruce Clark, international law and domestic laws. Russell then asked if W shot at a policeman. W said no. When Russell asks about what kind of weapons were there, W says hunting rifles, like .22s, and .303s. W doesn't know if there are any bombs. Russell asks if there are any machine guns there and W doesn't answer. Russell asks if W knows what a machine gun is. W doesn't know. Russell asks if W shot at a tank. W says that he's not saying fuck all. HR says that W has denied shooting at a tank seven times in total now. JT agrees that this is about right. JT agrees that he and Russell worked together to gain information.

JT agrees again that his personal view is that the natives were horribly oppressed when the white people came in contact with them. Wolverine objects to his attorney's way of putting this and is downplaying his argument. HR says that he will try to put forward W's position. HR says that JT's opinion is that the native culture was destroyed by the white culture. JT doesn't know how this is relevant. He agrees that this is his personal beliefs, but he is also an investigator.

JT agrees that he was empathizing with W. HR says that JT never allowed W to have his counsel of choice. JT says that he tried to offer him other counsel. He admits that he made no attempts to contact Bruce Clark or Ramsey Clark. HR suggests that W made his position clear. JT agrees that W mentioned the Privy Council, the Queen and the U.N. HR suggests that these were the only things W wanted. JT not sure if he put it that way. JT agrees that W said that he didn't like to be called a squatter. HR says that W was implying that he's not a squatter, this is his land. JT believes that this was W's belief. HR suggests that W made it clear that he was in the right to defend his land from aggression from the police. JT believes that this is what W believed.

HR suggests that W said that he's there to protect what is his. JT not sure if this is exactly what W said. HR says that this is essentially what he was saying and that he was just being defensive and that he never started anything. JF objects to HR suggesting that JT interpret what W said. HR says that JT can testify to what the accused said generally. JT complains to the J that he is being asked to interpret what W said. HR says that JT will do fine with all the help he has here.

JT says that W didn't say he wasn't aggressive, but did say that he was protecting the land. JT agrees that W said that he was protecting the land and that it was still Indian land because it had never been ceded.

HR says that there are two tracts that will have to be dealt with here, whether we like it or not. There is the international tract of dealing with the Queen and the United Nations. The other tract is dealing with the Constitution. JT doesn't want to interpret what W said. HR says that he wants JT to admit that W said that he wanted to go a route that wasn't conventional. JT says that W didn't believe in the justice system and that it had to be dealt with by the Privy Council or the United Nations. HR suggests that Bruce Clark's position squared with W's position. JT didn't know anything about Clark's position.

HR says that W wanted to speak only to Clark, but JT says that he understood that Clark wasn't available. HR wonders why JT didn't pursue it instead of just believing a rumour. JT didn't believe it was a rumour, he believed it to be a fact. HR asks if they don't have phones in psychiatric centres. JT has no knowledge of that. HR asks if he shouldn't find these kinds of things out. JT says that he believed that Clark wasn't available. HR asks JT if it isn't his duty to find this out and suggests that he didn't do so because it would have proven him wrong. JT repeats that he told W that there were other lawyers available. HR asks JT if he thinks there are lawyers out there who are experienced in defending native jurisdiction to the extent W had talked about.

ST - In JT's notes of Sept. 26, ST sees that JT received 20 cassette tapes from Cst. DeSilva of recordings made from male and female cells. JT agrees he made this notation. ST reads that he got these at 1500 hours. These were turned over to JT on the 21st of Sept. JT agrees that he isn't privy to the contents of the tapes. He agrees that these would be from people from within the cells.

GW - JT agrees he was paired up with Russell to deal with Wolverine. JT says that from the time he first arrived, he was aware that Russell was one of the investigators there. JT says that the ultimate superior there for investigations would have been Bass. He doesn't recall having an immediate supervisor there as he has today. He says there was no confusion about who was in charge - Bass was the ultimate superior.

JT agrees that he is supposed to be unbiased in his investigation. JT recalls W saying that he went to the lake because of what Percy had said to him about rednecks giving him trouble. JT remembers that Percy had called W because he knew more about the law and that Percy had been on the land for seven years. JT agrees that W is from Adams Lake near Chase.

JT recalls W saying that there were three kids in the camp, including JoJo, Sheila and Mindy. JT agrees that he wasn't sure if W meant that these were his kids.

GW suggests that the whereabouts of JoJo on Aug. 18th is an important issue. GW suggests that JT could have followed it up to find out when the call was made from Gustafsen Lake to the residence in Chase. JT not sure what he's getting at. JT agrees that W said that Percy had called W. GW suggests that there are "avenues of investigation" in an investigation. JT has heard of this. JT says that he never checked out the phone records of Percy, though he admits that the RCMP have the resources to check this out. JT never followed up that information - "I was a minor investigator in that investigation. I had come from Victoria and wasn't privy to all going on."

JT says that Russell would have probably done that, if anyone would have.

SF - asks for court transcripts for Ryan's testimony. J asks to deal with this later. Jury asks if they can be dismissed for the day, as some of them have things to do.

Jury and Cst. Toogood dismissed.

JF - advises that Cst. Toogood can't come back next Wednesday.

ST - regarding the 12th, he proposes that he doesn't have all he needs for those voirdires.

GW - says that he has contacted the Crown about them calling additional witnesses. GW wants the Crown to call Montague, Dosanjh, Harrison and ?. These are necessary to go to the abuse of process argument.

SF - asks for court transcripts regarding Ryan. She says that she had prepared questions for him last Monday and now he won't be called for some time. She didn't take notes and would like transcripts. J asks why she didn't take notes. SF says that it is her due process right to have transcripts. J says that in the past she has focused not so much on evidence as she has on the law. SF doesn't think this is a fair assessment. J doesn't want to argue. She says that the continuity being broken up makes it hard to keep track of what is going on. J orders her transcripts.

   * Day 68: Monday, November 4         * Day 71: Thursday, November 7
   * Day 69: Tuesday, November 5        * Day 72: Friday, November 8
   * Day 70: Wednesday, November 6