* Day 81: Monday, November 25 * Day 84: Thursday, November 28-no report * Day 82: Tuesday, November 26 * Day 85: Friday, November 29 * Day 83: Wednesday, November 27
Abbreviations used in notes:
DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)J = Judge
JoJo has a black eye.
Jury and Sgt. Dennis Ryan (DR) in.
SF - DR agrees that he had earlier testified that he when they chose third party intermediaries, the rule of thumb was not to take cheerleaders, but those who could take direction. DR says that the third party intermediaries weren't very useful for gaining intelligence after they had gone into the camp. DR says that they were screened to ensure that they wouldn't have any conflict with those on the inside. He says that the people who were sent inside were after a peaceful resolution and agrees that Marlowe Sam didn't want anyone to be killed.
DR says that Marlowe Sam was briefed every time he went in, but DR isn't aware of him being at any tactical briefings. SF suggests that Marlowe was told that "the assassins were coming in from Ottawa and Saskatchewan." DR says that he was never told this. He says that Marlowe probably based this on newspaper reports that there were ERT teams coming in from across the country to relieve the B.C. forces.
SF suggests that Marlowe was concerned about an imminent attack by the RCMP. DR says one could say that the RCMP were always in a position to attack, but that depends on one's perception. DR says that three days prior to the camp coming out, Marlowe reported that the camp was changing. SF suggests that Marlowe begged the people to come out because he feared an attack. DR says that he hoped that Marlowe would beg them to come out. DR says that Marlowe's position wasn't to negotiate, but to have dialogue with the people and make them see reason. SF: "You mean to see the RCMP's reason." DR: "I guess you could put that skin on it."
DR agrees that he had earlier said that negotiations were a right thing to do and that they weren't just going to go in there and attack people. DR says that there were a number issues beyond the Sundance ceremony. He says that he had spoken to a number of people who said that you couldn't have firearms during a Sundance ceremony. SF suggests that the people there were defending their rights to stay on Indian land. DR is aware that a number of people were making that claim.
DR says that he was briefed a little about Lyle James, but can't recall if he was told that James had served an eviction notice. DR claims that he was there to enforce the Criminal Code and was part of a criminal investigation. SF suggests that the police were there to remove people from the land. DR says that to investigate, the end result was the requirement to remove those people. SF points out that in June and July, a native RCMP officer was there to talk to the people. DR can only speak for himself and says that he was there investigating the attempted murder of two officers when they were shot at in their Suburban. He says that this was why the people were going to be removed from the camp so an investigation could take place.
SF suggests that the investigation and the shooting were a hoax so that the police could bring up hundreds of officers to remove people from their own land. DR says that he won't comment because that would be engaging in a debate. SF suggests that the police lied to the media. DR asks when. SF says that when the police reported about the Sept. 11th incident, they reported that the occupants of the truck fired at police, which was a lie. DR has no comment to make on that.
DR had never read Cst. Findley's report on the land history. SF asks if he was aware that Percy had been threatened by ranchers and had asked for help. DR was not aware that Percy had been threatened. SF suggests that friends and family went up there to help him because the RCMP wouldn't help. DR says that he wasn't aware of that. DR is aware that Percy is the faithkeeper. DR says that he understands that the Sundance is moved around and a site can be moved. SF asks if he consulted a Sundance expert for this information. The J asks her to return to the subject. ST asks that either DR say who told him this about the Sundance or to call a witness who will say this. The J says that the jury is to understand that this is classic hearsay.
SF asks how Percy could uphold his vow to the Creator to protect and keep the grounds if Lyle James removed him from the grounds. J doesn't allow the question. Referring to DR's previous testimony where he claimed that negotiations were carried out because they were "practical, moral and the right thing to do", SF asks how he can say that they are moral when it involves removing a spiritual man from spiritual grounds. J says that this sounds more like a point she's making for the jury. SF tells the J that the country was founded on the Rule of Law and the supremacy of God. J says this is a debating point and doesn't help the jury. SF says that this is fact, but says she will move on to another subject.
SF says that following contact with the New World in 1492, there was a debate whether the two leggeds there were human. J says that these are points for the jury and should be brought up at the appropriate time. SF asks if DR had testified that he had heard of the Papal Bull. He hadn't. SF says that in 1493, the Papal Bull ruled that the people in the New World were not human. DR says that he wouldn't agree with this. SF says that 30 years later, the people were ruled to be human by the Pope. The J has difficulty in understanding why these questions are put to this witness. SF asks if DR agrees with the ruling that the people here are human. He does.
DR agrees that he was told that Wolverine's goal was to reach the Privy Council, but denies ever trying to do this for Wolverine. SF says that the people in the camp were speaking to DR as a representative of the RCMP. He agrees that he was one of a few to speak to the camp. He says that through his inquiries by Sgt. Hartl, he understood that the Privy Council doesn't sit anymore in England. DR says that Hartl got this information from Stuart Rush and another lawyer. SF suggests that Bruce Clark told DR that the Privy Council did exist and was established to be an independent tribunal to sit between the Crown and the colonists. DR agrees that Clark told him this. SF suggest that DR prejudged the position of the camp. DR says that he was dealing with people behind barricades. SF says that there were no barricades there. J asks not to turn this into a debate.
SF suggests that Queen Anne set up a court to judge between the colony of Connecticut and the Mohegans and that this type of court was asked for by the camp. DR doesn't recall. SF suggests that Bruce Clark had been trying to get into the Privy Council for years. DR was aware that Clark was going to be in Ottawa on Sept. 12th.
SF reads from last month's court transcripts where DR agreed that Wolverine (W) was asking for a independent tribunal. SF reads that when DR had been asked about the Duty of Disallowance, DR had replied he understood that W was concerned because the colonizers had taken his land. SF asks if DR knows that the Duty of Disallowance stated that the Land Acts of B.C. were unconstitutional. DR didn't know that. SF tries to ask DR about existing aboriginal laws and the J says that this is going back into law. SF asks if DR is aware of any treaties between the Shuswap Nation and Canada. He isn't. She asks for his opinion of whether he has any doubt whether the Shuswap Nation has total right to its own lands, but J shuts her down again, saying that DR's opinion doesn't help the jury determine facts.
DR agrees that he believes that the RCMP have jurisdiction to remove people from the land. SF asks why the province would then go into land claims negotiations to gain jurisdiction of the land through treaty negotiations. J says that this is a submission for the jury and not this witness.
DR says that he is aware that some natives are on side with the B.C. Treaty Commission and others are not. SF begins to ask about his opinion on the treaties, but the J cuts her off. "You know that's not a proper question, why even begin?"
SF suggest that Agnes Snow recognized that Canada had authority over her. DR doesn't recall her saying that. DR does realize that she is an elected chief. SF asks if Snow ever said that the elected system was a form of self-government. DR says no.
MB/ Without jury.
GW - tells J that on instructions from W, he wants to show a video to this witness of the news where Bruce Clark is persuaded by police to go to the camp. GW says that W wants it shown that it was the police who were pushing Clark into the encampment and not the other way around.
LB - takes objection to this. LB says that DR has no personal knowledge of what happened in the video. LB says that just because this witness can identify people, isn't a way to make evidence admissible. He says that there has to be personal knowledge of what took place. J asks if the Crown is going to put any witnesses forward to make this admissible. LB says no and adds that there is only a small excerpt that the Defense want shown. This can create confusion in the jury's mind about what evidence is admissible. J hopes that the information of Clark being asked to go in could be put to the witness through questioning.
GW - says that these questions will be put forward by W. J suggests that W ask the questions and if there are any contentions, then we can view the tape.
GW adds that JoJo has a deep gash across his nose and a black eye. GW asks that the J obtain a report from the director of Surrey Pre-trial to find out what happened. J makes a request to the Sheriff to find out.
J notices that the interpreter is not here. ST says that Toby will translate for Percy. W says that he's okay.
Jury in.
SF cont'd with Ryan - DR says that he first met Mercredi on Aug. 28th, which was a meeting arranged by others. He doesn't know whose idea it was to bring Mercredi in. SF sees in DR's notes that Mercredi called from the James' ranch saying that they had come up with an agreement regarding the Sundance and the structures on the grounds. DR says this was made up of a couple of Band councillors from the Chilcotin (in fact, Cariboo) Tribal Council, Mercredi and James. DR agrees that traditionally, native decisions are made by consensus. He realizes that Mercredi and Agnes Snow went to James with no consensus and only went there on their own. SF reads that DR's notes of Aug. 29 say that this agreement undermines the Sundance argument. DR explains that this only means that it took away the camp's argument that the Sundance site was under threat. SF asks if he understands that the people in the camp disputed the authority and the legality of the Indian Act-appointed councillors. DR agrees that he understood through discussions with the camp and with Mercredi and Snow that there was "a split in thinking between the factions." He understands that there is some resentment from the traditional people towards the elected chiefs.
DR isn't aware that the Indian Act came into effect right after the Duty of Disallowance, nor that it outlawed the Potlatch and the Sundance. SF suggests that the Indian Act was designed to destroy the Indian people. DR doesn't know if he would interpret it this way. SF asks if he is aware that the Sundance is illegal. DR isn't aware of that. SF says this is because that part of the Indian Act was repealed in the early part of the century. DR would agree that the elected system takes its direction from Ottawa, but isn't aware that they have very little power.
DR says that Clark felt that the police were continuing to perpetrate the destruction of the Indian people. DR says that Clark was upset because he couldn't get into the camp on the morning of Aug. 31st. DR explains that he told Clark that his entry into the camp was approved in principle by management, but the specifics hadn't been worked out yet.
DR says that W was upset with him because Clark had called in saying that he was coming in, but it took longer to arrange than expected. SF suggests that the police were stalling. DR says that he wanted Clark to go in, but the commander did not. DR says that he was woken and told that Clark had tried to drive in on his own. DR says that he sent some people after Clark because he didn't want Clark to go back to Ottawa without him going into the camp. DR agrees that Clark was very frustrated.
SF suggests that when DR said that Mercredi and the elected people were working on behalf of the people in the camp, DR ignored the fact that the camp didn't agree with the elected people. DR says that he believed that Mercredi was working for the benefit of "his" people. SF points out that Mercredi wouldn't sign a simple petition that declared that the colonial power had no jurisdiction on native land. DR was aware of no petition.
SF wants the video played of DR in the negotiator's trailer speaking with Bruce Clark. SF tells the J that she has some questions to DR regarding this meeting.
The Sheriff says that the video hasn't been set up and suggests that the court stand down while this occurs. The J stands down.
Everyone is back.
The tape is played. (See notes from Wednesday, October 30/96, Pages 3-5 for details of the videotapes.)
In the middle of the tape, SF stops it where Clark tells Webster that he is upset that the press has reported that he is facing disbarment. DR says that he hadn't heard that it was the B.C. judges who had made this request. He says that Clark never mentioned the B.C. courts.
L/ The videotape is continued.
End of videos.
SF - DR says that this meeting took place around 11:00 in the morning on Aug. 30. DR agrees that on Sept. 1st, he heard that the application that Clark was taking to Ottawa on the 12th would likely be turned down. SF points out that in DR's notes, the Superintendent had concerns that the RCMP would be perpetrating a hoax by allowing Clark to go in because it looked like nothing was going to happen in Ottawa. DR says that the operation commander was concerned about allowing Clark to go in with the idea that he had a strong case. DR says that his sources told him that nothing of significance would come of the Sept. 12th court date ruling regardless of the outcome. DR agrees that Clark believed that a good thing could come out of the ruling.
SF suggests that DR wanted an agreement between Mercredi, Snow and James to forestall Clark's argument. DR says that he had nothing to do with that agreement at all. SF suggests that DR told the camp that they had a strong legal argument. DR agrees he did say this. SF asks if this was "perpetrating the hoax". DR says that this was the operational commander's wording, not his. DR says that Clark felt that his argument was irrefutable and had told DR that he had been denied for years in the courts. SF suggests that Clark wanted a third party tribunal to deal with this. DR recalls this. DR also recalls that W said that there will be no justice in Canada. SF suggests that W had said that he had exhausted all the legal avenues to pursue justice for his people. DR doesn't recall W saying he had exhausted all the legal avenues. DR says that W did say he was frustrated with the whole system. DR agrees that Clark was frustrated as well.
SF points out that DR had asked last week why this issue hadn't been dealt with prior to the standoff at Gustafsen Lake. She suggests that the judges didn't want to deal with this. DR says that he didn't know one way or another and reiterates that he didn't get involved with the issues. SF reminds DR that Mercredi had suggested that he impanel a group of lawyers to decide on whether Clark had legal grounds for his argument.
DR says that he wasn't going to become a scholar and learn the issues. His job was to negotiate the people from out of the barricades. He says that he couldn't debate the merits of the law with W or with Clark. DR says that the police action couldn't go on forever because the taxpaying public would be fed up. SF asks if it ever crossed his mind that the treason, fraud and genocide couldn't go on forever. DR says that he never looked at the merits of genocide. SF says she isn't asking him to find merit in genocide.
SF asks if DR didn't think it was urgent for him to resolve the issues of Percy Rosette. DR asks her to define urgent. SF begins to speak on the urgency of stopping 137 years of genocide. J says that DR was only asking for the definition of urgent. SF asks DR if he thinks it's urgent to end genocide as soon as possible. DR asks SF to define genocide.
SF asks DR if he isn't aware that this is in the Criminal Code. He isn't aware of this. She reads from Sec. 10-17? of the Criminal Code, which defines genocide. DR didn't know that this was in the Code, despite Clark charging the government and the police with genocide. He never researched this nor the Constitution, as Clark had asked him to.
DR says that it wasn't practical for him to research this. He says that he had others doing this for him. SF reads from DR's notes which say that Insp. Dave Guy had told him that the Attorney General of B.C. had rejected Clark's one paragraph letter. DR says that this letter said that Canada took no exception to the Privy Council looking at this issue. DR says that he passed this up the ranks and that it was stopped at the level of the Attorney General of B.C.
J says that he suggests that on Thursday they break for the day at lunch because a juror has a medical appointment in the afternoon. He adds that the Christmas break will be from Friday, Dec. 20 to Jan. 6.
AB/ SF - DR says that he sent Clark's letter and he understood that the Attorney General would send back a formal response rejecting the letter. SF suggests that no politician wanted to take credit for the letter and were hiding behind the police. J says this is not a proper question.
SF reads from DR's notes from Aug. 29th which say that by gaining the agreement Mercredi had created with James, this would take away "the Sundancers' argument." DR repeats that this referred to removing any issues the camp may have regarding the future of the Sundance grounds.
SF reads from Hartl's notes which say that he felt that the Supreme Court would not hear Clark's argument in Ottawa on Sept. 12th. SF suggests that Hartl said Judge Layman would hear the argument, but would turn it down. DR can't add anything to Hartl's notes. SF then reads further from Hartl's notes, which say "be careful, the Supreme Court has looked at this argument and they don't know if they have the jurisdiction to rule." The note goes on to warn DR not to reveal the sources of this information to Clark, those being Saunders and Rush.
DR agrees that when he spoke to Dave Belleau in the camp, he asked him if they had a cease-fire and Dave said yes. Then W got on the radio and told DR that he didn't like the perimeter.
SF reads from the radio transcripts that DR guaranteed the camp safety on Sept. 12th, the same day that a person was shot at down at the lake. DR agrees that there was an incident that day and says it was unfortunate.
SF is trying to get blood out of a stone here. She tries to engage in a debate and the J keeps shutting her down.
SF asks if DR ever cut anybody's communications off during negotiations. DR says no. SF says that she was cut off during her conversation with her sister. DR says that he thought that she had hung up. SF says that there is a roomful of people here who would say otherwise.
SF says that she has an audiotape of Marlowe Sam. DR agrees that Marlowe was a signatory on a letter to the U.N., but DR didn't speak much to him.
Negotiator tape from Sept. 11 is played: Marlowe Sam (MS) says that he and people were at the roadblock when the explosion happened. He asks if there is anything that can be done. The male on the other end says Privy Council. MS says that he can hardly hear him. The line goes dead.
SF asks if the phone was made to sound like they were cut off. DR admits that either he or MS asked to make it sound like they were being cut off. SF asks if this was part of his truthful negotiations. SF plays the tape again and you can hear MS saying in the background, "can you make it sound like we're being cut off." SF asks DR again if he cut anyone off. DR again admits that he did. DR repeats that he thought that SF had hung up on her sister. SF: "Come on, you think I'm going to hang up on my own sister?" J says that DR doesn't have to answer this.
DR reiterates that he didn't research the Constitution. "This is police work and it may not always be neat and clean, but that's how it goes." DR maintains that he did his job and wouldn't change things much if he could do it again. SF asks if he would read the Constitution this time. DR says again that he doesn't get involved with the issues.
SF brings up one more point and the J reminds her that she's already dealt with this. SF sighs, "I guess I don't need to recapitulate endlessly on this point. I have no more questions."
W - DR says that Webster was there from the beginning of negotiations. DR says that as far as he knows, Webster never actually went to Waco, Texas - he just contacted the FBI and his advice was rejected.
Webster called a number of times to Virginia because he instructed a course down there for the FBI. On the 4th or 5th of Sept., Webster went down to Virginia for this.
W asks why the third party negotiators weren't stopped from coming down the road when the police blew up the truck. DR says that if he knew that the truck was going to be blown up, he wouldn't have allowed them to go in. He says that as soon as the negotiators went past the police checkpoint, the police were out of contact with them. W suggests that the RCMP wanted the elders to be caught in the crossfire, so the police could blame the camp. DR says that this would have made no common sense since they had nothing to gain from this. W says, with a laugh, that they had the land to gain. DR believes that Dave Belleau had some heart problems because of all the excitement. W: "I think it was the RCMP that got excited that day."
W asks if DR knows that W and Percy testified to the U.N. DR was not aware of this. W asks why DR didn't tell the camp that he was negotiating with Snow and Mercredi since it would have made a difference. DR says that Mercredi didn't want it released until the arrangement was made. DR claims that he told the camp about it on Sept. 4 or 6. W suggests that they never found out about the agreement until OJ came out. DR checks his notes. DR can't find it. W says that he can't find it because he never communicated this. LB says that on Aug. 31st, there is a reference to this in the negotiators' transcripts of tape 6, on page 2.
DR reads from the transcript where he said "that agreement with Mr. James had nothing to do with the authorities". DR says that he presumed that W got information of the agreement on the AM radio. W asks DR if, as a negotiator, he tries to get a cease-fire or a surrender. DR says that he would try to get people out of a barricaded position in any situation without anyone getting hurt. W asks who they would surrender to. DR says the police, who represent Canada. W notes that the word Canada comes from the Iroquoian word meaning village. W asks what village the police represent. DR says that he doesn't know. W: "You should do your research into history."
W says that he went to a meeting with the Cariboo Tribal Council and rejected that they had a right to speak for the people in the camp. W asks if DR agrees. DR says he agrees that this is what W believes. W asks about what DR said earlier about an agreement with the Chilcotin Tribal Council and wonders if he meant the Cariboo Tribal Council. DR says that he understood it to mean the Cariboo/Chilcotin Tribal Council. W notes that this area falls into the traditional boundaries of the Northern Shuswap and Chilcotin Nation. W asks if this is an example of getting two nations to get together to fight for power - to divide and conquer. DR says that this is W's opinion.
W asks if DR ever looked into the reports made by Cst. Findley. DR says the negotiators didn't. W asks if he would ever look into the charge of genocide. DR asks him for more details. W just shakes his head. "I don't know how much more you need."
W asks why DR didn't feel it was necessary to pass on Clark's letter to the federal level. DR says that when he found out that the provincial Attorney General had returned the letter to the RCMP, he went to his superior and told him that Clark wanted it to go to the federal level. He found out that the letter had gone to the federal AG (Solicitor General) and they had returned it to the provincial AG because the province had the contract for policing in B.C. and that's why the letter had to go there.
* Day 81: Monday, November 25 * Day 84: Thursday, November 28-no report * Day 82: Tuesday, November 26 * Day 85: Friday, November 29 * Day 83: Wednesday, November 27