Trial, Week 14: Summary - October 30


WEEK 14: OCTOBER 28 - OCTOBER 31, 1996

   * Day 64: Monday, October 28         * Day 67: Thursday, October 31
   * Day 65: Tuesday, October 29        * Friday, November 1 - no report
   * Day 66: Wednesday, October 30


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Without jury.

GW - says that OJ isn't here and the bail supervisor was looking for him saying that he hadn't signed in. Suniva isn't here because she is sick, but wanted the court to be informed.

MA - says that there are some disclosure issues that need to be dealt with and needs about an hour to deal with it.

LB - isn't sure if OJ has given instructions to GW to continue or if he's asking for a warrant as OJ has absconded.

GW - says that he has to inform the court about it because he was told that OJ has broken one of the bail conditions to sign in.

Jury in and Sgt. Dennis Patrick Ryan (DR) back on witness stand.

HR - DR agrees there was some correspondence between him and Clark. HR pulls out a letter dated Sept. 2 where Clark was upset that Ryan had passed on letter to the Attorney General of B.C. instead of the Governor General of Canada. HR reads it out loud. Clark is upset that DR said he was only obeying orders. Clark says to DR that the Constitution protects the natives and had it been applied in 1875, then there would never have been a cattle baron trying to evict these people today. He says that the RCMP is just another arm of illegal land theft which is paramount to treason, fraud and genocide. DR agrees that he read letter, but nothing was done about it.

HR suggests that DR knew that Clark gave the camp legal advice. DR agrees, but doesn't know if they took it. HR suggests that Clark set down the legal position for camp which allowed them to take the actions they did. DR agrees. HR suggests that Clark went around B.C. with this position and Percy and Wolverine took Clark's word as gospel. DR: "That would appear to be the case." DR agrees that everything started when Lyle James served an eviction notice to the natives saying he owned the land. He also agrees that based on Clark's position, the natives said that they owned the land. DR agrees that Clark's letter was passed on as far as the B.C. Attorney General and that he stopped it there. DR agrees that Clark laid the blame at his feet.

DR says that initially, when Clark prepared the document, DR passed it through command to the provincial government authorities. DR said that he had passed a message to his command that Clark had requested the letter to go to the federal authorities. His superiors told DR that this wouldn't be done. DR says that Clark wasn't told of the specifics of why it wasn't passed on - only that it hadn't been passed on to the federal level.

HR asks DR that if DR had a problem and asked the advice of a lawyer, wouldn't he accept that as the law? DR says that he would think about it and perhaps get a second opinion. DR agrees that then he would take the opinion and apply it to his problem. DR agrees that Clark's letter to him said that the natives had a right to be on the land. DR agrees that Wolverine would have been told this too. HR suggests that Wolverine got this lawyer's advice and accepted it. DR says that Clark wouldn't tell DR what he was going to tell the camp before going in. After coming out, DR says that Clark immediately read out the affidavit. DR agrees that by the time he got the Sept. 2 letter, DR said that it would be reasonable to presume that this is what Clark told the camp.

HR suggests that Clark was a practising lawyer. DR doesn't know if Clark had a right to practice in B.C.

DR said that Clark told him he could practice in B.C. as long as he didn't take a fee. DR agrees that he felt that Clark was a lawyer.

DR read the letter and passed it on to his superiors, but didn't know if it was an accurate reading of the law. DR says that he believed the land to be Lyle James'. DR says that his job was to get a peaceful settlement and get the camp members to leave. HR says that DR wasn't seeking a peaceful settlement, he was going to get the people off the land, hopefully without bloodshed. DR says that it would have been peacefully settled if the natives left. HR says that it could also have been peacefully settled if Lyle James had backed off. DR says that it wouldn't have mattered if James backed off because there were criminal charges. HR reminds him that there were no criminal charges to begin with. James didn't want to get a legal court order, so instead he served an eviction notice.

DR says that HR keeps saying that DR was briefed on this, but he didn't know of the events leading up to the standoff. HR thought that yesterday he said that he was briefed enough on the situation. DR says that his and HR's idea of a peaceful settlement might be different. HR agrees, but says that his client's idea of a peaceful settlement was to remain on the land. DR agrees that this is what his client would have wanted. HR says that his client also had legal advice from a lawyer saying that he could remain on the land too. J says that this is a submission for the jury. J also says that a jury member needs a short break.

Everyone back.

HR - DR agrees that he spoke to Clark for some time to vet him. HR says he vetted him two videotapes worth, which was longer then any of the elders. DR agrees that he vetted Clark a long time. DR claims that even if he found out that Clark might tell the camp to stay longer, DR told management that Clark should go in regardless. DR agrees that there were two schools of thought involved, but wanted Clark in anyways. He knew it was a risk, but thought it couldn't hurt the situation too bad.

DR says they interviewed Clark at his bed and breakfast for an hour or so. They also interviewed him in the trailer, but DR doesn't remember for how long. In the first interview, DR was with others, but in the trailer, DR was alone with Clark. HR wants the two videotapes played for the jury. JF asks under what basis. HR says that it helps the jury understand the narrative. J asks if it will help the jury understand the rough ideas of what Clark had told the camp. HR says that this is correct. J says that he will allow this.

J wonders if only portions of the tape could be played, but HR and GW say no. LB objects. J asks the jury to step out.

HR says that if there are parts of the tape LB doesn't want played, then we can view it without the jury. LB says he doesn't want to prolong it any longer than necessary. J wonders if there is anything on the tape by officers that could prejudice the accused. GW doesn't think so. GW explains that the tape is of Clark explaining to the police the importance of John Stevens. GW says that Clark was very influential on the camp and it should be shown to the jury. MA says that the radio transmissions were played and these should be too. The J says that there is a big difference between the two, but will allow the videotapes to be played with some reservations.

Jury in. The tape is played. DR points out some of the people in the small trailer in the shot, but a sheriff says that the jury television isn't working well as the sound is breaking up. The J asks that it be looked at during the morning break.

MB/ The first videotape is played. It is taken inside a small travel trailer. Clark tells Ryan that he will tell Wolverine that everything is cool. Clark describes John Stevens as the Canadian heavyweight of medicine men. DR identifies Dr. Mike Webster. Bruce Cameron is taking notes. DR starts dialling into the camp on a briefcase communication box. Webster is heard speaking on another phone telling the other person that he will call back when they're ready to end the call.

Wolverine (W) gets on the phone with DR. DR asks about the man coming out of the camp. W says that he was scared, so he will come out when Clark comes out. Clark gets on the phone with W. Clark tells him that he spoke to John and said there is nothing to worry about - the Creator is taking care of everything. Clark says that he should be coming in tomorrow. W asks for Hi-8 videotapes since everything is being recorded. Also wants smokes and snuff. DR gets back on phone and says that Clark should be coming out tomorrow. W says that they spotted some more of his men out there with a dog and they should get some more training. Clark smiles. Some of they jury members do too. Wolverine says that someone will come out to meet Clark tomorrow. They hang up.

The police thank Clark. Clark says that Wolverine is a little rascal. Ryan reiterates that the other day, Wolverine said that there were some young bucks in the camp and maybe they could send out some women. A young woman jury member is covering a smile.

Ryan says that the camp would really like to see Clark and is optimistic. "Let's all hope for a good resolution tomorrow and then we can move on." They all get up to leave. Tape ends.

Tape #2 is played. Exterior shot of car pulling up to RCMP trailer. Media are there. DR says this is morning of Aug. 30. Next shot is inside trailer. DR reassures Clark that he's not concerned about the negative media reports concerning him and that the police have a higher purpose with the people in the camp. DR reminds Clark that this is a police operation and the police agenda is to get the people out of there. DR says that Clark has offered his assistance and the police are grateful for this. DR says that there might be a desire for Clark to want to stay in there longer than is prudent. DR says that he assumes that Clark's agenda is to get the people out of the camp. Clark says that his agenda is to give them legal advice and then they will have to make their own decision. DR says that he thought Clark told him at his Bed and Breakfast that they don't have to remain in the camp anymore. Clark says that he has slept now and that he may have to tell them that the Supreme Court might renege on dealing with the issue. The camp has to know that this is a possibility. Clark would prefer that camp came out to pray outside the Supreme Court in Ottawa.

DR asks if he thinks the Supreme Court will renege because it wasn't reported in the press. Clark says that it has more to do with the nature of the courts that refuse to deal with the issues. Clark says that a recent article put out by the yellow journalists of Clark facing possible disbarment is appalling considering the sensitive negotiations about to be engaged in. Clark says that he is worried that the RCMP will only end up following orders without obeying the law, which would be treasonable, fraudulent and genocidal. Clark says that if there is any law they may have that can contradict his position, he'd like to see this. DR says that he has nothing to show him.

Webster says that the management of the RCMP initially approved him going in because they expected that he wanted the camp to come out. Clark says that he has an obligation to make full disclosure to his clients. DR appreciates his frankness.

DR says it's unfortunate the newspaper article came out. Clark says he tried to inform the reporter of his error and the reporter printed it regardless. DR says that these things take on a life of their own and there's nothing they can do about it.

Webster asks if push comes to shove, would Clark suggest to the camp to come out as soon as possible. Clark says that he won't answer this as Webster is trying to interject himself between the client/lawyer relationship.

Clark says that he will give his clients a full spectrum of options available, including the weak points, just as the police have to do the same while formulating their plans. He explains that to participate in breaking the law is fraudulent, treasonable and genocidal. HR is huffing and puffing disrespect as Clark gives his legal position.

Webster asks if Clark would possibly stay in the camp if asked. Clark says that this isn't consistent with the work he has done in the past. Clark says that he is in agreeance with the police to resolve this situation without injury to anyone and as quickly as possible. Webster is happy to hear this. Clark says that they share this same prime objective, but the police are causing problems by just following orders. Clark suggests that the police back off to a safe distance and not engage in a pre-emptive attack. Webster assures him that as long as negotiations are happening, there is no worry.

Webster asks how the court case might go on the 12th. Clark has great confidence in the argument, but not in the court. He says that the old law is very clear. Aboriginal law is very clear. He says that he has written this down in a letter to Sgt. Sarich and if they have any questions, then they should ask him those questions now. DR asks for Clark's educated guess of Wolverine's reaction when he tells him that he believes the Supreme Court of Canada will renege in dealing with the issues on Sept. 12th. Clark says it's too hard to say. Clark says that Wolverine is stable and rational. Clark believes that Wolverine's position will be based on law and fact. Webster says that he is concerned about Wolverine's comments that he will only come out in body bags. Clark says that the policeman's father went to Europe to fight for principles and accepted that they might come back in body bags. Webster asks if Clark thinks this is a war. Clark says that the law says that incarcerated Indians are to be looked at as prisoners of war.

Webster asks if Wolverine believes that they are engaged in war. Clark says that only the police are engaged in war. If the Indians were engaged in terrorist acts, they would be in the cities blowing up subways. Clark says that allegations that the Indians are terrorists is terrible. Webster agrees.

Clark says that native law says that Indian land is Indian land until that is changed. White man's law says the same thing. Clark says that he is obliged to disclose all the facts of law. Clark says that the police are obliged to uphold the law. The point of the Second World War, in theory, and the Genocide Convention in 1948, to which Canada subscribed, is that the excuse of just following orders is no longer considered legally viable in this world. Webster says that the police are there to protect the natives. Clark is glad to hear this. Webster appreciates his honesty.

Clark says that this is recorded and he wants a copy. Webster says that this is being done for the training branch as this is a learning exercise since this doesn't happen every day. They don't think there would be any reason not to give him a copy of the tape.

DR asks Clark to ask Wolverine how many people are in the camp as this would be of assistance to formulating the operational plan. Clark is unsure of his legal obligations regarding this.

DR says that he doesn't have to if he isn't comfortable with this. Clark appreciates not having to do so. DR says that he will ask it himself and Clark says this is the best idea.

DR calls the camp. W asks about the phone calls out. DR says he'll let W speak to Clark first. Clark gets on and asks if there are any special brands of smokes he wants. Clark tells W that he is on standby to come in. Clark says he'll see him today or tomorrow hopefully. DR gets back on and says that they are just looking at the safety issue. W says he doesn't want anyone sneaking around here. DR assures him that there will be no one sneaking around. DR asks how many people are in the camp. W says that there is an Indian behind every tree. There are a few smiles in the jury. W says that maybe there are a couple of hundred and it sounds like the police are only concerned about their own safety.

DR asks about the man who was going to leave the camp. W says that he'll wait until Clark comes in. Stuart Dick wants to talk to Clark to find out his legal position. W says that he would like to make sure Clark brings in some tobacco because he gets mean without it. DR wants clarification if Stuart is coming out. Stuart gets on and they decide where to meet on the logging road. Stu wants to be met at the log and DR wants him to come out to the police checkpoint. DR says that Stu's uncle is worried and looks forward to seeing him. Stu asks about his safety. DR assures him he'll be safe.

W gets back on. DR says that they'll work out the details and he'll call back. They hang up.

Clark says that the Sept. 12 Supreme Court date has to be clarified to Wolverine as an alternative to the Privy Council. (HR snorts his disgust with this idea.) Clark says that he'll suggest spiritual ceremonies in Ottawa to W. Clark asks DR to consider either not having charges laid or arranging bail so that they could come out and attend the Sept. 12 Ottawa date. Clark suggests that this could be a compelling argument to the camp. DR and Webster say that they will pass this on to their superiors. DR says that the appropriate person to deal with now is no longer Insp. Smith, but instead DR.

Webster tells Clark he is correct that the police have a narrow focus. He says that Clark's words in the past have been provocative and they hit hard. Webster is afraid that management may not be able to put Clark's words behind them. Clark says that these aren't his words, they are those of the Constitution. Concerns should be directed at King George and they are not provocative - they are just. (More snorts from HR.) Webster says that if he had his job, it might be easier to understand. Clark says that they do have the same job to uphold the law. Webster says that on this day of Aug. 30, speaking to Clark, he sees Clark as being a great catalyst to resolve this. Webster says that he understands that Clark wants to get this into the courts as soon as possible and he understands that Clark's only concern is that the courts might renege. Clark agrees. He also agrees that staying in the camp may be detrimental to the process. End of tape.

L/ HR cont'd with Sgt. Ryan - DR says that he had never seen it as an option to meet with those in the camp face to face as the native officers had earlier. He adds that it looked like the third party intermediaries were working fine. HR says that the biggest escalation of tensions happened on Sept. 11 and this was happening while negotiations were going on.

DR says that it was unfortunate that the red truck was blown up while negotiations were going on.

DR says that the force isn't so rigid that he was totally unaware of the tactical side, though he admits he didn't know the red truck was going to be blown up nor that there was to be an attempted shooting on the 12th. DR says that it was a tense time, but organized and moving forward. This included a tactical side that was organized too.

HR asks about the reference to a war in the videotape. HR says that in a war, there are lulls in battles to pick up bodies before going on to kill each other. HR asks if there was any attempt in the middle of all this to stop and talk to the people face to face. DR maintains that the third party intermediaries were working fine, so he let them continue.

ST - wants to go through some of the chief testimony. ST asks if there is any overlap between negotiations and tactical sides. DR says that this was basically a tactical operation. He says that there are two houses in this process - the tactical and the negotiations. He says that the tactical couldn't exist in isolation.

ST asks if in DR's 26 years on the force, if he had run operations that utilized negotiations. DR has. DR agrees that a number of elements have to be drawn together. DR says that he had input to management at Gustafsen Lake, but he didn't make decisions. DR goes over the pecking order. The ultimate decision maker on site was Supt. Olfert - officer commanding. The operations commander was Supt. Hall. DR says that an operations commander is responsible for the day to day operations and is the person units report to regarding progress or lack thereof. Hall was Olfert's second-in-command. DR understood that both sat in on every meeting that DR attended. Insp. Smith was in charge of administration. DR presumes that administration would report to Olfert. He would be responsible for the mundane ordering of equipment and was part of the management team. Moulton was the tactical commander. He was responsible for the placement of the tactical units and Wescam, etc. DR says that in the early days, negotiations reported to Moulton or Edwards, but that was later changed. DR doesn't recall Insp. Kembel being there, but understood he was in charge of the field office. DR not familiar with the relationship between Moulton and Zulu. All of the above were part of the management team. DR says that his team met with management team at least once a day.

DR agrees that when he said things to the camp, these things would come from the management team. DR believes that some of the management meetings were filmed by the video trainer, Norm Torp. He doesn't know if there were any minutes taken during these meetings or of the decisions made. DR had to rely on his own interpretations of the meetings and on his own notes.

DR says that in the transcripts of the communications, he isn't aware of any examples where he said things that he wasn't directed to do by the management team. DR says that following communications, he would fax Moulton and the management team in Kamloops of things that transpired. This would include any miscommunications. DR agrees that this management team was also responsible for the ERT arm. Sgt. Gates was in charge of ERT and sat in on most management meetings. DR considers Gates part of the management team.

DR says that there are provisions to not let the negotiators know what is happening on a tactical level. He has never in his 26 year history seen this happen, but is aware of cases where this happened. DR says that in his testimony, he said that there are times during negotiations when the negotiators aren't told all of what is happening on a tactical level.

DR says that if there is something that he wasn't told, then the reason for that would have to come from those that withheld the information.

DR agrees that there was a second set of negotiators. DR says that this team was headed by Staff Sgt. Wylie. There were four persons per team.

DR says that when he arrived, he was almost immediately put into a meeting. He agrees that if he had more time, he would have liked to have done more background research, but he says he felt comfortable with what he did know. DR says that it didn't concern him if a court injunction by Lyle James had been obtained or not. He was satisfied with the information he got regarding criminal activities.

He was told that there would be no negotiations - only surrender would be acceptable. He says it wouldn't have been prudent to tell the camp this when he spoke to them. ST suggests that it is the nature of negotiations to not be frank. DR says that when you are first establishing contact, you don't want to push anyone into a position. He says that nothing is written in stone and you feel it out as you go along.

DR never asked Sarich what Clark's position was when Clark told DR of the letter to Sarich. DR doesn't believe he ever saw that letter, nor inquired about it. DR doesn't know if much significance was placed on the letter - he never had anyone investigate it.

ST notes that Webster played a bigger role in negotiations than originally put. DR understood that Moulton had contracted Webster as he had done for other things, like stress counselling. DR says Webster is knowledgable in barricade-type situations and in making recommendations for the direction negotiations should go. DR says that a number of documents were prepared regarding procedures for arrest. This was done when Clark weÆP6∞úrees that th≠`êformation he initially got was quite skeletal, but says that as time went on, his information grew. DR agrees that in police operations, tips will be generated that might set off a new line of inquiry. DR says that Olfert wanted a native settlement in which natives would be involved, so he suggested Belleau as a person that would know many natives. A number of names were generated this way. DR says that the negotiation component was only one aspect of the whole operation. DR says that Insp. Bass was in charge of the criminal investigation. Bass was part of the management team and was at a number of the meetings. DR agrees that if it was possible, information that had to be looked at and analyzed was funnelled through the management team. DR says that the file flow would go through readers. If a branch was generating information, then readers would go over this.

DR says that he only seldomly reviewed Wescam footage. He says he could look at it if he wanted to, but had no desire to do so as he was taxed to the limit. DR wasn't listening to the various radio communications going on in the field. DR says that there were normal communications to the people in the field regarding what was happening during negotiations. DR agrees that there were a lot of communications that went in with the third party intermediaries. ST brings up Insp. Hall's letter. DR says that he was only aware that someone had passed it on to the camp.

DR agrees that he repeatedly told the camp that if they stayed within the boundaries, they would be safe. DR says that a safe zone was drawn on the map that went in with the letter, but he says an agreement was never made by the camp. DR kept referring to the perimeter anyway.

ST says that it would be difficult for the camp to know if this was an agreed upon perimeter or a unilaterally determined perimeter. ST says that the people in the camp couldn't have known DR's thoughts because he was only talking on the radio.

DR agrees that the only time a perimeter was actually shown to the camp was on the map that was sent in. DR maintains that the first perimeter he referred to was not the safe zone, but a loosely defined psychological one.

DR says that the first time a perimeter was mentioned was around Sept. 5 and the only time it was defined was on Sept. 10. DR agrees that he can't say for sure whether all the people in the camp could have known what the perimeters were. DR says that it wasn't as hard to understand the occupants at the time as it is now listening to the tapes. He doesn't know how clearly the camp could hear the police. Likewise, he doesn't know how clearly things were put to the camp from the third party intermediaries. He agrees that a map and a letter would be a definite item to look at and less prone to misunderstanding.

DR agrees that whether or not the camp agreed with the boundaries, the management made it clear that camp members would be left alone within the boundaries. DR says that as long as camp members didn't show any overt hostile action, they could move freely in the perimeter. DR agrees that Wolverine had asked to enlarge the perimeter to get wood and water and food. DR says that the Shuswap delegation made the wood gathering request because they said that the camp was bored and wanted something to do. DR had understood that the camp had already stockpiled on water based on Wescam footage, but says he never checked the footage himself.

DR reiterates that Olfert had wanted natives to be used in the resolution. ST suggests that this was one of Webster's psychological ploys to gain native support in the area. DR maintains that this was Olfert's idea and DR agreed with it. He has trouble with the word "ploy" because he didn't see it as a trick, only as a tactic. DR says the tactic had come from above. DR doesn't think that this was part of the isolation procedure - cutting off communications and support was. He says that the idea is to make it difficult for people to stay in and easy to get out. DR is aware that the phone was cut off, but says this is often done in barricaded situations and didn't concern himself with the legalities of this. He isn't aware of a warrant being obtained to do this.

AB/ ST cont'd with Sgt. Ryan - DR says that one of the directives he was given was to find out who the leaders of the camp were. DR says that he understood the main principles were Percy and Wolverine. He says that by the end, he thought it was obvious who the leaders were. He says the spiritual leader was Percy. The leader of the camp or the camp spokesman was Wolverine. He based this on the fact that these were the people he spoke to and if he asked for others, they would determine whether they could speak or not. He agrees that this is only his opinion and had no knowledge of what was going on in the camp. Clark also gave him some inside knowledge as to what was happening. DR agrees that Clark told him that natives have a different view of leadership.

DR says that Wolverine would have much the same position as Clark and Percy was the spiritual leader. He doesn't expect that as spiritual leader, Percy would be telling people what to do. ST suggests that there were people who wanted to assist negotiations who had different views of the camp. ST suggests that those who offered a spiritual option out of the crisis said Percy was a keeper of the Sundance ceremony. DR confirms that he had heard this. DR agrees that he understood the Sundance to be a sacred native ceremony. He never understood it to be a cult-like activity.

DR isn't sure of the distinctions between medicine people and faithkeepers. ST suggests that faithkeepers are selected by medicine people to hold certain ceremonies and are not affiliated with the political aspects. DR agrees that there were people there who were of a spiritual component and others that were more of a political component.

ST suggests that the holy people said that you couldn't communicate spiritual matters over a telephone. DR says that he understood that the ceremonies were essential.

ST asks if DR had heard of George Findley. DR had. DR wasn't aware of any research that Findley had done, nor had he followed up on it. DR maintains that he felt well-equipped going in. DR never investigated the fact that no eviction notice or subpoena had ever been secured. DR says that he was only aware of a shooting. He says the shooting was the genesis for him going there and was all he concerned himself with. Findley's report or Percy's claim that no eviction notice had been served had never been researched by DR. He says that whatever work he was able to generate, he sent to the management team. DR says that Cameron faxed information on to the management team.

DR says that he learned that Mercredi had gone in to the camp from other police and from Mercredi himself. DR aware that Mercredi is a chief under the Indian Act and not a Shuswap National. DR agrees that Mercredi was not controllable by the police and had a position that was contrary to the police. DR agrees that Mercredi was upset that the phone system had been shut down while he was in there negotiating. DR said that Mercredi had concerns for his personal safety because the communications were shut down. DR says that Mercredi was on side with the police agenda in getting "his" people out. Mercredi did say he would make a phone call, which he did. DR says that Mercredi supported the police's agenda, which meant that he wanted to get the people safely out of the camp. DR agrees that the camp had the same agenda, except they didn't want to come out at that time. ST suggests they didn't want to come out until they had legal advice or spiritual advice. ST suggests that the camp didn't trust the police to guarantee their safety if they came out. DR didn't remember this being said to him through Mercredi. DR says that Mercredi told him that Clark relied on an obscure provision. ST asks if DR knew that the Royal Proclamation was enshrined in the Constitution. DR wasn't. ST wonders if any of the police knew this. DR isn't aware of this. DR was aware that Clark was a published author which ST says was about this obscure provision. DR agrees that Mercredi didn't respect Clark's legal position. DR agrees that letting Clark go in to the camp ran against Mercredi's advice. DR says that they listen to a lot of people's advice though.

DR agrees that when the camp asked for Clark, he knew a little of Clark. DR agrees that Mercredi was the equivalent of the Chretien of the Native elected systems and that he listened to him when he made an observation. DR says that he had access to intelligence about Clark. He cites a briefing by an intelligence source. ST asks him to look that briefing up, now that DR has raised it. DR finds a document headed "Bruce Allen Clark". This was a secure fax that was sent from Ottawa on Aug. 31st?. DR agrees that this was sent as a result of Mercredi's concerns. ST surmises that the report says that Clark is an activist who had trouble with a newspaper report which referred to his pending disbarment. DR isn't aware that the police released this report. DR says that Clark was upset that he was misquoted by a journalist, but there was no indication that he felt the police had done this. DR agrees that this raised fears in the management team of whether Clark was a suitable person to send in to the camp, in case he became a cheerleader who might tell the camp to never give up. DR agrees that Clark wasn't a controllable commodity for the police.

He says that Clark's position at the 108 Mile Bed and Breakfast was different from that when he was in the trailer. DR agrees that Clark supported the position of his clients and not the police.

ST finds a letter from Cst. Wild dated 26 or 28 Aug. 1995. In it, there is a reference to Madeleine Gregoire and Charlene Belleau. DR agrees that this letter was in the negotiator's log and was something he would have read, though he's not sure when. DR says that at the same time he received the letter, he spoke directly to Gregoire. DR agrees that the letter says that Gregoire had worked for 25 years with John Stevens and Percy. DR agrees that within hours of Stevens going in, the camp came out. DR agrees that spiritual people spoke spiritually and not politically, and it was on this level that she proposed to speak to Percy. DR says that Gregoire told him that Percy was the groundskeeper of the Sundance area. DR agrees that these people wanted to have direct contact with the people of the camp and that the Penticton police told them that there might be a safety concern. DR agrees that Gregoire said that they weren't concerned about their safety from the people in the camp. ST suggests that the holy people told DR that the camp was being kept apart from their medicine people, which would make it impossible for them to get spiritual advice.

DR says that he doesn't know when he reviewed this document. ST suggests that DR is very diligent and wouldn't let the document sit around for a year. DR agrees he read it, but doesn't know when. He says that this file was maintained by readers and ideally, they would have passed on relevant information. ST suggests that he read it before Sept. 10th. DR agrees. DR agrees that a solution couldn't be found until a spiritual alternative was put to the people in the camp. DR says that this was a new concept to him, so he didn't necessarily jump on to it just because someone told him about it. ST says that DR must deal with all kinds of different people, ranging from an Islamic skyjacker to a Dukhobor in the B.C. interior. ST says that DR's awareness seemed to be lacking in understanding that if God told the medicine man to tell the camp to get out, they would. DR said that this is what happened, but ST points out that it didn't happen until Sept. 17, after thousands of rounds were fired. DR says that the medicine man wouldn't come. ST says that he'll get into that soon, but it is clear that he did come. ST suggests that DR didn't tell Stevens all he needed to know in a timely manner. DR disagrees.

   * Day 64: Monday, October 28         * Day 67: Thursday, October 31
   * Day 65: Tuesday, October 29        * Friday, November 1 - no report
   * Day 66: Wednesday, October 30