Trial, Week 14: Summary - October 31


WEEK 14: OCTOBER 28 - OCTOBER 31, 1996

   * Day 64: Monday, October 28         * Day 67: Thursday, October 31
   * Day 65: Tuesday, October 29        * Friday, November 1 - no report
   * Day 66: Wednesday, October 30


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia


Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Jury in and Sgt. Dennis Ryan (DR) back on witness stand.

ST - DR says Madeleine Gregoire's letter was written Aug. 31 and he read letter three days later. DR says that Gregoire was a holy person and was the keeper of one of the buffalo skulls in the Sundance grounds. DR says that she wanted to get right in there and asked if she could do a ceremony, but Wolverine said she could do it out there. ST reads from radio transcript where Gregoire asked Percy if she could pray over the phone on Aug. 30 and Percy told her it wasn't a wise thing to do. ST notes that the two spoke Shuswap, but DR doesn't know what she or he said. DR says that a conversation of Lawrence Michel's was translated, but none of Percy's. DR agrees that Percy usually spoke Shuswap and only occasionally broke into English.

DR says he never translated Gregoire and Percy's conversation because he felt she was an honourable person and believed what she told him was said. DR agrees that these conversations are being used as evidence. ST says that throughout the transcripts, he never read any warnings by the police that anything said could be used against them. DR agrees. DR says that in some situations like in this one, it's not desirable to make warnings against people in a barricade position. DR agrees that by this point, the roads had been blocked, planes were flying overhead, and the people in the camp were roughly surrounded. DR agrees that the camp was under a form of real or psychological detention where they were not free. DR says that it was of his own volition not to issue the police warning during rapport-building. DR knew though that Percy's conversation would have been used as evidence against him and yet he never had all the Shuswap translated. DR agrees that he could have done this, but he didn't.

DR was aware that secret meetings were taking place to resolve the Lyle James Sundance situation without the Sundancers involved. DR says that he was comfortable that the camp was aware of the agreement at some point, though he's not sure when. DR was aware that an agreement had been made in these secret meetings that was signed by Agnes Snow, Keray Camille, Basil Billy and Lyle James. ST says that the agreement appears to say that Lot 114 would be allowed to be used for Sundance ceremonies after consultation with "the sundancers". It also allows the signatories to decide what to do with the structures and permitted the ceremonies to continue to the summer of 1997. DR agrees that he knew that the Sundance operated in cycles. DR says that in speaking to Gregoire, Armstrong and Looking Horse, he got conflicting information whether the cycle was over or not. DR agrees that he never asked Percy this.

DR told the camp that an agreement had been struck, but he admits that he never read the agreement to the camp. DR says that when he told Wolverine that the elected chiefs had signed this, Wolverine took exception to this. DR is aware that the camp didn't recognize the elected system of chiefs. DR agrees that it appears that one of those signing (Camille) was related to James. ST suggests that the three natives signing had no connection with the spiritual people in the camp. DR disagrees, but doesn't know what relationships may exist. ST says that there was no connection between the spiritual people and the state, just like in our system. DR says that he felt that James was making this agreement with a pure heart to resolve the situation.

ST suggests that the police's attitude towards this agreement coincided with the police attitude toward negotiations with the camp. DR isn't sure, but agrees that Mercredi was sent in agreeing with the police agenda. DR says that Mercredi went ahead on his own to resolve the demand of guaranteeing the continuation of the Sundance. Mercredi made the agreement and came to DR with it, asking him not to reveal it to the media.

ST suggests that this document was nothing more than hot air with no substance. DR disagrees and says that it was created in good faith. ST reminds him that the grounds were later bulldozed over. DR claims there was more to it than this.

DR says that Olfert authorized the use of the video camera during Clark's talk after DR asked Olfert.

An Aug. 29 note at 6:25 p.m. by DR says that regarding the Sundance, it was going to go on until 1997. DR finally finds this entry in his notebook. ST reads that Marvin Shmunk, in a letter dated Aug. 27, advises that because of his relationship to a Lord Exeter, who has a history in 100 Mile House, said he could contact Exeter, who could raise the issue in the House of Lords in England. DR agrees that the House of Lords has the direct ear of the Queen. DR agrees that Shmunk was a neutral third party that could have brought the issue to England. DR says that he never contacted Shmunk nor followed it up himself. He was aware of the correspondence though.

DR says that he never got legal counsel himself to find out about the legal possibility of getting to the Queen through the Privy Council. DR admits that the constant request from the camp was to get to the Queen, one way or another. DR says he thought "they" wanted the Queen's intervention in a land dispute. DR agrees that he shouldn't use the term "they" when saying this. He says that Percy often said that this was native land, but used basic language to say this. He agrees that some of the people in the camp spoke of different things. Agrees that "Cookie" only spoke of rice and potatoes. DR agrees that there were different points of view in the camp. DR says that Wolverine and Clark wanted to speak to the Queen, but says the thrust of their message was the request for a third party tribunal.

DR agrees that Cst. Demerais's notes to him said that Percy was not in control. DR says that Percy appeared to be the spiritual leader, but Wolverine had the political agenda and was the spokesman. DR agrees that his unit didn't really profile the other personalities in the camp. DR agrees that Mary Pena's name was only mentioned once as being in the camp. DR says that he was aware of a number of the other people in the camp from talking to other officers, but those conversations aren't always reflected in the files.

DR agrees that Cameron spoke to Mr. Ward of the Native Veterans Association. DR agrees that Ward suggested that they come in with tobacco and gifts in a traditional way. ST says that he only brings this up to underscore Gregoire's suggestion that dealing with native people should be done with regard to ceremonies and traditional methods of relating to one another.

ST notes that Gregoire isn't on the witness list. DR agrees that Gregoire suggested that Percy wasn't in control of the camp and he was being controlled by Wolverine. DR says that this was only her opinion. DR says he hoped that Percy would still be influential on Wolverine through a spiritual side. DR agrees that Wolverine had a spiritual side and Percy was concerned about land issues and that there was overlap between the spiritual and the political, only that one was more interested in one aspect over another.

DR recalls a Sept. ? letter from Mercredi where he suggested that a number of police and government lawyers write a letter to put Clark's legal opinion in question. DR agrees that he never put this forward to the camp. DR says that he understood that the Sept. 12 Supreme Court date was only at an "intervener" status. DR says that Clark misrepresented what the Sept. 12th date was really about.

DR agrees that Webster kept pushing Clark to tell the camp that if they came out, they would have their day in court. DR agrees that the government lawyers thought that chances for resolution on the Sept. 12th court day were weak. DR agrees that the camp would have pinned some hÆg ∞®p court date,ßπ wasn't prepared to go out on a limb to tell the camp that their chances were slim to nil.

In a note regarding a meeting with Moulton, Olfert, etc., they discussed Clark's meeting. DR agrees that the team suggested that Montague could make the media more pro-active if the police put out the histories of the people in the camp to the media, creating a two-pronged attack. DR doesn't know who came up with this idea - it was a team brainstorming idea. DR agrees that he had access to the media, but never saw the press releases when they came out. DR says he very rarely looked at the releases, so he wouldn't be able to say if the descriptions of the people were accurate or not.

MB/ ST cont'd with Sgt. Ryan - DR looks at a note from Sept. 7. DR agrees that it appears that Webster was absent for a few days, but DR says that these notes aren't his, but Sgt. Wylie's. In another note, a fax is sent to or from Demerais regarding John Stevens, dated Sept. 6. It says that the Cochrane Detachment contacted the wife of Stevens. She said that Stevens was concerned about being seen supporting only one side, but was praying for a peaceful resolution. DR is not aware of Stevens' political views. DR agrees that once Webster came back, Webster raised concerns about the police's actions, including allowing family members to contact the camp. Webster felt that following the Sept. 4th alleged shooting incident with the Victoria ERT, there should be a form of punishment to the camp, like denying them access to family members that wanted to speak to the camp.

DR was aware of Martin Highbear's death, a man who was involved in the original creation of the Sundance at that site. He is aware that Gregoire wanted the news of his death to get to the camp, but agrees that there is no note of this.

DR agrees that on Sept. 8 at 9:10 a.m. there was a meeting with Charlene Belleau, ? and Norm Torp (the RCMP cameraman). The note is by Wylie, but DR agrees that DR was there. DR agrees that from Sept. 8th onwards, there was optimism from Charlene about the use of the third party intermediaries to achieve a peaceful resolution. DR points out that Charlene never went in. He agrees that the intermediaries brought in potatoes, tobacco and other food. DR agrees that Olfert was upset about the amount of food going in. DR says that he too believed it was excessive, but he didn't do anything about it. DR agrees that this amount was more than was needed for the next 24 hours.

DR agrees that during this next period, there were no RCMP pro-active activities, like plans to blow up trucks, etc. Olfert thought the food that would be brought in would only be a token amount.

DR believes that after Olfert's dismay with the food, a letter was drafted by Hall that included a map.

Notes from Sept. 9, 2:59 p.m. say that on Sept. 7, DR went to Alkali Lake Reserve with Smawley. Natives there were Charlene, who was chairing, her husband Steve, David Belleau, Peter Antoine, Gord Sebastian, the Dennis brothers, not sure if Henry Saul was there. A proposal came out of there. A cease-fire was proposed to begin at noon starting on Sept. 10. Next proposal was a native peacekeeping force. Next was the requirement that the camp occupants would be treated fairly when arrested because the camp didn't trust the RCMP.

DR says that many of the third party intermediaries didn't trust the RCMP either. DR agrees that this has been an attitude that has been around for a long time and one of the reasons the RCMP tried to institute change in recent years. DR says that he was frankly surprised by this distrust, but agrees that he's not a native and hasn't lived in their communities.

Another later note of the meeting by DR says that he is confident that the camp is still holding ceremonies. Note goes on to say that no more food would be going in and he felt that the police had no control over the media. DR explains that he told the natives who were disgruntled by some of the media reports that he didn't control the media.

DR agrees that there was another meeting with Smawley to discuss the Alkali Lake meeting. In this meeting, a response to the Alkali Lake proposals was drafted, which he sent to the management team. This led to the letter that eventually was drafted on Sept. 9th by Hall.

ST notes that a group calling themselves the Shuswap Nation also put forward suggestions regarding the RCMP's conduct, which were subsequently not adopted.

Another letter of Sept. 10 by Hall says that Hall hoped that the intermediaries would have achieved more by then. DR says that this change of attitude happened after Belleau, Armstrong and Marlowe Sam had gone into the camp because Wolverine didn't like the perimeter created because they felt like cattle. Armstrong was also upset because an ERT gun had touched her pipe. That evening, Tom Dennis was suggesting a buffer zone be created around the camp manned by U.N. personnel and a peace camp being created. Management didn't like the way things were going, so Hall's letter was drafted.

There is another note of Sept. 10 following meeting with Webster, Belleau and ?, in which Hall's letter was looked at and adjusted in a few ways. DR says that the "Shuswap Nation" group were also turned around to support the police and not the camp. DR agrees that on Sept. 10, John Stevens had been talked to a number of times by the Cochrane detachment and by Madeleine Gregoire. DR says that Stevens never came out to the detachment, as he had been requested. DR says that he was under no impression from Gregoire that one would have to speak to Stevens in his Stony language or that tobacco or gifts would be needed. DR says that there were 18 attempts at communication to get Stevens to get to 100 Mile House. ST suggests that no one actually went out to his house and spoke to him face to face. DR says he eventually went out there on Sept. 16th. DR flew to Medicine Hat and met Stevens in his motor home. Stevens was coming from Ottawa. Shortly thereafter, Stevens came out to the camp and everyone came out.

On Sept. 10, 21:00 hours, Charlene Belleau, Torp, Sebastian, Wylie, Webster and others were at a meeting. DR says that Charlene was concerned about the way he was challenging the camp. DR explains that this came about because DR called in to the camp while the delegation was in there and the perimeter deal was still being hammered out. DR agrees that he was asking when people were coming out. DR says that the third party people took exception to Webster's comments at that meeting. DR agrees that Sebastian thought DR was just a messenger boy because he couldn't give them a decision right away. DR told them that he'd have to talk to his superiors first. DR says that some of the people's concerns at the meeting were that the APCs were too close to the camp. They also said that the people in the camp needed something to do, like chop wood. The third party people wanted a response soon and wanted to go in that night.

DR notes that because there was no cease-fire, the tactical aspect would continue. DR explains that he felt that the third party was getting bogged down by U.N. peacekeeper ideas, etc. and he wanted them to move ahead.

Another meeting was held with RCMP management and this is where Hall's letter was drafted. This letter, dated Sept. 11, is addressed to Charlene Belleau. DR explains that the Sept. 10 letter by RCMP was concerned about the third party negotiations bogging down, and the Sept. 11 letter written at 12:04 a.m. by Charlene Belleau was a response to the "bogging down" letter. Belleau said that she wasn't aware that the term "peace camp" was being used. She said that the Shuswap Nation is still committed to getting a cease-fire and the camp is ready to do so. She said that they are disappointed that they are being dismissed when they are so close to a peaceful end. DR says that the third party was much more conciliatory the next day.

DR agrees that the third party was heading into the camp on the 11th when the red truck was blown up. DR says he had no knowledge from Wescam that the truck was heading out of the camp. ST notes that in the phone radio transcripts of Sept. 11, DR says that the trouble of the day began when the camp strayed over the lines. ST is going to play that tape.

L/ Tape played. Tape 13, page 5. DR gets on radio and asks Dave Belleau if there is a cease-fire agreement. Belleau says they have some things to iron out still. Wolverine (W) gets on and asks what assurances he has that the police won't go in to the boundaries that have been set. DR assures him. DR tells W that the boundaries will not be extended. W says then the RCMP will have to answer up to the international community because they are denying the camp wood and water. DR says that that won't be necessary if they are coming out. W says that they need to get water. Belleau gets on and DR tells him to make sure that W understands that his people have to stay in the camp. Tape stopped.

DR says that this conversation took place in the afternoon of Sept. 10. DR says he saw the map that went in to the camp and at that point, there were no red circles drawn in. When the map came out, DR later saw it with a circle around it. DR is not sure if Gordon Sebastian drew this during a meeting afterwards or if the camp occupants did.

DR says that he was aware on the 10th when he spoke to Wolverine that the camp had topped up on wood and water. DR says that he learned this from information gathered from Wescam, but never saw the footage himself. He agrees that Wolverine wanted to get to the source of the water. DR was aware of no known sources of water in the camp, nor of the quantity of wood in the camp. He wasn't aware that a fire was burning there 24 hours a day.

On the morning of the 11th at 08:58 hours, there was another meeting with Gordon Sebastian, Dave Belleau and RCMP. DR's note says that he understood that a cease-fire had always been in effect from the RCMP. His question on the radio was asked in more of a formal request if a cease-fire existed. He agrees that there were no shootings for a number of days prior to this. DR says that he was seeking a formal agreement prior to a surrender. There is also a reference to having the helicopters back off. DR says that this was one of the issues raised at the Alkali Lake meeting. There is a note that the boundary would not be extended.

There is an observation that the RCMP will profile members of the camp in the media. Don Ryan (no relation) said that there was no need for this, as this would be counter-productive on the eve of negotiations.

DR said that this was coming from management. Don Ryan also noted that tensions were rising on both sides. DR agrees that there were concerns on both sides.

Regarding the radio tape of Sept. 10th, DR says that this was the last call that day. The next call is on the morning of Sept. 11. Tape is played. DR asks for Percy. David Belleau is put on the phone with Percy and they speak Shuswap. Call ends.

Next call: DR asks for W. Male on phone asks what they're trying to do, kill their people? There is no response. DR begins to talk with no response. He speaks to no one, in a robotic monologue, that these events (blowing up the truck) happened because they went over the boundary. He says that people have to stay in the camp and near the phone. He says that there will be no more face to face meetings. The camp will now have to deal with him. He asks if anyone wants to come out or if they want to talk to him. No one does. He says that there is some danger for the people inside the camp. He says that their elders will not be coming in to talk and the people have to stay inside. The police will not be moving back, they will not be going away. The tape is stopped.

ST suggests that when DR is speaking, he isn't speaking to anyone. DR says he hopes that there are people listening, but doesn't know if they are. DR agrees that he made no decisions on his own and took his directions from the management team. DR says he doesn't know when these words were spoken. He says that these would be in the scribe's logs. J understands that the call was made at 12:46 p.m. ST says the bomb went off at 2:00 p.m. and perhaps there could be clarification. LB doesn't know if he can assist.

DR says the time of the call is 3:57 p.m. DR was in the Zulu command post. He was listening to radio transmissions as they occurred. DR made the first call early in the afternoon of the 11th at 12:46 p.m. This ends at 12:50 p.m. He then put Belleau on. Next call was at 15:57 hours. At 16:01 hours, DR says Wolverine came on the phone. DR says that this is what the scribe wrote down in the tape log, but admits that he doesn't know who was on the line then.

DR says he was at the command post after he learned that the shooting incident had begun. He didn't see the red truck explode on Wescam. He only heard this on the radio. DR told the camp there was danger because he was trying to get control "because it was spiralling out of control." He was trying to get people to go back to the camp.

When DR said third party people wouldn't be coming in, he says he meant only for that day. He agrees that the intended affect on the camp was that the elders' meetings were finished and now it was strictly a police matter.

Later, DR agrees that he spoke to Percy. DR agrees that Percy was upset by what had occurred that day. He agrees that there was a lull that followed and that there were no incidents that night.

In Wylie's notes, at 1:40 p.m., it was suggested that a call be put in to get a cease-fire. At 16:20 hours, there was a meeting with the people who were supposed to go in and they were upset. DR isn't aware that David Belleau had a heart attack that day. DR can't recall if Belleau was even at the meeting. DR recalls explaining to the delegation what happened based on what he knew at that time. DR agrees that as far as RCMP management was concerned, there was a safe zone at 4:00 p.m.

DR agrees that he hadn't been told about the genesis of the gunfight until 4:00 p.m. He agrees that he wanted to know what was going on because he was bringing in negotiators then. He brought up these concerns to management, but doesn't recall to who. DR says that "it was terribly unfortunate not to know that that kind of plan was in place when I was organizing negotiators to go in." DR maintains that he didn't feel left out, nor put it to management that he had been left out.

His understanding for why the truck was blown up was because it had left the safe zone and there was the opportunity to take it out. DR was confident that management knew what the safe zone was.

DR says that he needed to get the times people were going in or going out, so tactical teams would know what was going on. DR spoke to Gates at command centre in 100 Mile House and expected that information would be disseminated to ERT members. DR explains that negotiation work would be related verbally to management team.

On the 12th, on the day of Clark's court date in Ottawa, DR was at a meeting with Wylie, Olfert, Hall and others at the same time that ERT members tried to shoot a camp member by the water. DR wasn't aware that the shooting had taken place then. He doesn't recall Hall getting a phone call from Kembel during that meeting. Meeting was at 8:33 a.m., a few minutes before shooting. ST says that Kembel claimed to have called Hall for confirmation to shoot the camp occupant. DR says he can't help ST - he doesn't recall the phone call.

GW - DR agrees that when third party people were searched going in or coming out of the camp, DR wasn't there at the time. He says this procedure began on August 31 when Clark went in. He doesn't know if people like Mercredi were searched because that was before DR's arrival to the area.

DR agrees that he was trying to find out who was in the camp. DR agrees that he is a confident speaker on the radio. He says he was never specifically trying to gain evidence, though he recalls ERT asking him to find out the numbers in the camp. DR recalls asking Wolverine how many people were inside and agrees that this would be evidence - but only of how many were inside.

AB/ Without jury.

GW says that he doesn't know where OJ is and that he has breached one of his bail conditions by not reporting to his bail officer. J issues a warrant for OJ's arrest.

Jury in.

GW cont'd with Sgt. Ryan - DR had correspondence that led him to believe that 22 people were in the camp. DR never came face to face with the people he heard were inside. He agrees that one of the people said to be in the camp was Arnold Williams. DR has no knowledge how Williams got in or out of the site. DR agrees that from Aug. 28th onwards, the possibility existed that people could have got in or out undetected. He agrees that someone who didn't want to be held accountable for his actions could have got out. DR: "It's big country out there." DR agrees that he never saw Grant Archie's name on the intelligence reports of who was in the camp.

When Clark came out on Aug. 31st, DR says that the exhibit that was put in as evidence (Ex. 128), titled "Affidavit by Trond Halle", was only given to him by Cameron. DR says it appears to be the same document that was read out by Clark to the media. The document refers to a .223 casing, but DR agrees that there was no casing attached to the document. Likewise, there is a reference to a Hi-8 videotape that wasn't attached to the document either. DR explains that Clark held up a casing and a tape as he read the document to the media. DR agrees that the document says that the video proves the RCMP fired first on Aug. 27th, but DR admits he never saw the video. There is a final reference to a newspaper article, which Clark also held up, titled "RCMP On The Warpath."

DR says the affidavit signed by Trond Halle appears to be written in lawyer-like language. The reference to "misprision of treason" in the affidavit were the same words used by Clark the previous day in the RCMP trailer. There was also the title at the top which said "Affidavit of Trond Halle". DR agrees that this was of interest to him. DR agrees that he knew that Trond was in the camp. GW reads the opening line of the document which says, "I, Trond Halle, freelance camera person..." DR agrees he thought Trond was a media person, and based on radio conversations in which he was told someone was recording events, DR admits he believed Trond was the person videotaping. DR wasn't aware of any media people going in with the permission of the RCMP. DR says that he is not aware of any photos of Trond holding any weapons.

DC - DR agrees that Mercredi was used to introduce the negotiating team to the camp. In the radio transcript, Mercredi tells Percy and Wolverine that he hopes they can all work together to resolve the problems. When DR gets on next, he tells the camp that he hopes to reach a satisfactory resolution. DR agrees that this was his introduction to the camp and there was no mention of warrants or intentions of arrest. DR says it was implied, but never said. DC suggests this process was fundamentally dishonest. DR disagrees.

DC points out that the police goal was to have people come out and be arrested. DR agrees. DC says that this wasn't the goal of the camp, but DR says he doesn't know what their goal was. DC suggests that the more honest thing to say was that the police didn't care what the camp's agenda was, just come out. DR agrees that at this point, on Aug. 28th, there were no charges or evidence against any individuals. DR says he understands that the issue dealt with land that the natives felt was theirs and was of spiritual importance. DR agrees that there was conflict over the land. DR says that he doesn't know if everyone thought the ground was sacred nor does he know when the stand became more political. DR agrees that in the beginning, the main issue was the Sundance ceremony. DC suggests it got political to get a rule of law decision for protection for the Sundance. DR doesn't know if he can separate the two issues. DC suggests that the main issue was to get a rule of law decision. DR suggests that the people in the camp were also trying to get as much mileage out of the stand as possible. DC suggests they wanted to get the issues heard.

DR says he would have had to become a scholar to research Clark's legal position. DR agrees that Clark was the camp's connection with the outside world and DR was the camp's connection with the police. DC suggests that DR's idea of negotiating was to see how much tobacco it would take to get people out of camp. DR agrees that this is a simplification, but generally true. DC suggests that the camp's idea of negotiations was to get the law addressed by having the Governor General open the door to the Privy Council in England. DC points out that SF said this to her father. Father doesn't think this will happen, but SF says that this is what should happen to get justice. SF says that until this happens, the people will be at the camp for some time.

DC says that DR kept saying he knew what Wolverine was saying. DR agrees. DC asks DR to relate what he understood Wolverine to mean regarding the 1875 Duty of Disallowance. DR says that Wolverine was upset that the colonizers were stealing the land. DC says that DR didn't know that the Duty of Disallowance said that B.C. didn't have the right to do what it was doing regarding its Land Acts. DC suggests that DR should have researched it, like Cst. Findley did. Then DR could have gone to the camp and said that he read it and understands that the natives are right to stay on the land and he will protect that right to do so. DR dryly replies that this wouldn't have been the appropriate way to deal with barricaded people. DR says that his job was not to debate with Wolverine, but to get the people out of the encampment. DC asks then why DR said that he is there to help the people when all he's interested in doing is arresting them. DC suggests that DR could hear the frustration of the camp when he kept saying for two weeks that "I understand." DR: "I felt I had a good position to maintain negotiations."

DC points out that DR told Wolverine that he had a very strong position. DR admits he didn't really believe that. DC asks if DR still believes he wasn't fundamentally dishonest. DR says that when you're dealing with barricaded people, you don't tell them that they're going to be arrested. DC suggests that the people believed him when he told them he was going to help them. DR says the rhetoric couldn't go on forever and resources were being taxed.

DR understands that Clark wanted a third party tribunal. DR is familiar with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but wasn't aware of the reference in Section 25 that continues to uphold the 1763 Royal Proclamation. DR agrees that as head drug officer in Kamloops SubDivision, he has educated himself with search and seizure aspects of the Charter in order to do his job. He admits that he never felt it necessary though to inform himself of relevant Charter sections that would pertain to his work at Gustafsen Lake.

DC reads portions of the radio transcripts that dealt with Stuart Dick. When Stu was going to come out, Wolverine told DR on Aug. 29th that Stu "never took part in anything, he thought it was just more a demonstration". DR agrees that he assured Stuart his safety. DR also recalls telling him that "no action would be taken against him." DR maintains that this only referred to his safety - not to legal action. DR says that he never looked into sending in a native cop to pick Stuart up, as he had told the camp he would. DR says he wasn't aware that Stuart's brother, who came out with Stu, was roughed up by the police upon arrest. DR says that the confusion of where to pick up Stuart arose because DR didn't know the layout of the land. DR says that he believes that Stuart came out unannounced, so he would have been arrested by the perimeter police. DR says that it was dangerous for people to stumble up and down the roads and that's why he always checked on the radio as to when exactly people were coming out.

DR isn't aware that Stu walked 18 km down the logging road almost to the police lines before being arrested. When DR called Wolverine the day after Stu's arrest, Wolverine told him again that the Dick brothers didn't "never had nothing to do with nothing". DR agrees that regarding the Dick brothers walking 18 km, they went a considerable distance to walk out. DR agrees that without a police perimeter, the Dicks could have walked out all the way to 100 Mile House. DR agrees again with what he told GW, that the perimeter was never secured.

   * Day 64: Monday, October 28         * Day 67: Thursday, October 31
   * Day 65: Tuesday, October 29        * Friday, November 1 - no report
   * Day 66: Wednesday, October 30