Trial, Week 14: Summary - October 29


WEEK 14: OCTOBER 28 - OCTOBER 31, 1996

   * Day 64: Monday, October 28         * Day 67: Thursday, October 31
   * Day 65: Tuesday, October 29        * Friday, November 1 - no report
   * Day 66: Wednesday, October 30


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 1996 - DAY 65

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

It's a typical turnout today from the defendants. The usual crowd that shows up are: Percy, Toby, Flo, Paintball, Stuart, Rob, Grant, Suniva and Trond. And in red, as always, are Wolverine and JoJo.

MA not here now - HR representing his client.

LB has tape 13 now. The original didn't include all the conversations. Side A has very little on it and if the Defense would like it played, that's fine, but otherwise we could go to side B. J says that's fine.

Tape Thirteen - Sept. 10: DR asks for P. Woman tells DR she's fine while they wait for P. P gets on and DR passes phone to Dave Belleau (DB). They speak Shuswap to each other. Jeannette Armstrong's name is mentioned. Call is finished.

Next call: DR calls asking for DB, who is now inside the camp. DB says that things are moving along in the camp. DR asks if DB has had a chance to talk about the Superintendent's letter. DB says they're dealing with that now. DR asks if a cease-fire is in effect right now. DB would like them to call back at 2:30. DR passes phone on to Juliana, who speaks Shuswap with DB. They end and DR gets on again. DR asks DB if they're still planning on coming out by 3:00 p.m. DB says he thinks so. DR tells him that they're aware that two camp occupants have gone beyond the perimeter established and the police are aware of this.

Next call: DB is on the phone with DR. DB says there are some questions regarding the proposal, like they need to go beyond the perimeter for wood and water. DB says that they want to discuss the perimeter with DR and DR says that that's a possibility. W gets on and says the boundary has to be larger than that because they need to get water, wood, and to be able to hunt. DR says that he believes they're working for a speedy resolution. W asks how they expect them to stay in there with no food. W says they're not coming out until a third party tribunal addresses the law. DR asks for DB. DB says that they are going to do a ceremony and that should take about an hour a half, so they likely won't be leaving until 4:00 or 4:30. DR says he'll call back at 4:30.

Next call: DR speaks to DB. DR asks if there is a cease-fire agreement in the camp. DB puts on W. W asks if they keep within the fenceline, how do they know the police won't come in. DR says that they have the police assurance that nothing will happen during a cease-fire. DR tells W that his commander has said no to extending the perimeter. W says then Canada will have to answer to the international community for withholding food and water. DR says that if people are coming out, they don't need food and water. W says that the international community should take over because the Indian people will never get justice here. DR gets on with DB and DR repeats that the perimeter will not be extended.

Next call - Sept. 11: DB, now outside of camp, gets on the phone with P. They speak Shuswap. Phone goes dead.

Next call: DR is asking for W, but phone goes dead. DR speaks and says that the camp people must stay within the boundary and stay near the phone. "We will not be going away." DR wants to know if there are any people that want to come out. DR says that "the set of events were precipitated by your people not staying inside the compound, you must stay inside and not come outside of the compound." DR says that this has to be resolved now. He says that there is some danger for some people in the camp. He says that "your elders will not be coming in to talk to you."

"You must stay inside the compound, the police will not be moving back, they will not be going away." DR is asking for W or anyone to pick up the phone. He repeats this. He asks for SuSu, Shelagh, Mindy, Cook or Trond. He says that there is danger for the people in the camp.

An angry male gets on (later identified as Black (B)). B says that they shot one of the people. W gets on and is mad saying that Canada is going to pay. DR tells them to stay in their compound and W keeps telling him to fuck himself. W says it's pay back time. He says they're dealing with law, but you people are too greedy. DR keeps trying to tell them to keep inside the compound and W keeps telling him to go fuck himself.

P gets on. He says that they shot an unarmed woman. P says that the police went wrong and were using bombs. DR asks if he would like to gather some people and come out. P says no, not the way the police treat them - they double crossed them.

B gets back on and says that the police have to answer for what they did. He tells the police to back off. The world will learn about this and it will spark a crisis all over the world. DR asks to speak to Trond and B says he's missing too - "You probably shot him too."

Tape Fifteen - Sept. 13: Shawn Wylie calls, but there are just clicks coming from the camp. He suggests that they change their battery. He tells them he'll call back.

Next call: SW gets on after numerous attempts. Suniva gets on and asks what's going on about the person getting shot at the other day. SW says that this has been taken care of and assures the camp's safety. SW says that Marlowe will be coming in and asks if there are any more videotapes they need.

Next call: Gary Bass gets on and says that their request for a message to be played on CBC radio has been granted and tells them the times to listen for. The phone goes dead.

Next call: SW gets on with "Bart" and tells him there will be a message every 15 minutes on the radio. Bart hands radio to another male. SW says that radio message will be played every 15 minutes with Antoine Archie on it. Male asks what Antoine will be saying. SW doesn't know, except that he will say that he supports you.

Next call: SW asks for Marlowe, who's inside the camp, but one of the warriors says that he's in a ceremony right now. SW will call back.

Next call: SW gets on phone with Marlowe (MS). MS says that they're in the middle of a pipe ceremony. SW says that they'd like to see someone out of there by 6:00 p.m. MS says it's hard to talk to them with all the APC activity and would like them to back off. SW says he'll see what he can do. Next call: SW speaks to MS. MS says that they're just finishing up their pipe ceremony and just talking now. SW says that there are 50-60 people there waiting for MS that want to know what's going on. MS asks SW to tell group to stand down for now. SW concerned that if he doesn't leave soon, there might be an accident. MS assures him that there won't be any accidents from their side. SW says that if MS brings people out, to stop short 200 yards of police position and have occupants come out one at a time.

MB/ LB comes running in late with the J and jury waiting - "Sorry, my lord." J says no problem.

Next call: SW wants MS, but the male says he's in the middle of a discussion right now and asks SW to call back.

Next call: SW gets on with MS. MS says that just the four negotiators will be coming out. They'll be leaving immediately.

Tape Sixteen - Sept. 14: SW speaks to "ShoeShoe" (Suniva (S)) and says Marlowe is on the phone to speak to her. MS tells S that another team is coming in today including Jeannette, Dave and another elder. S asks if Shari Bondy could come in too. MS says he hasn't seen her around, but will check. S asks him to contact her mother too and also asks for more coffee. MS says that police say no. W gets on and says that he heard something on the radio about a promise to surrender if a message was played and the camp never asked for that. Once they hear that the issues have made it to the Privy Council, then the camp will leave. MS says that the team will come in soon.

Next call: SW asks MS, who's in the camp now, if they're bringing anyone out. MS says they're still confirming this. MS asks if some smokes, coffee and Copenhagen could be sent in. SW scolds him: "Marlowe!" SW says they'll see what they can do.

Next call: SW tells Suniva that Shari was in the office and asked how she's doing. S says fine and then asks if Shari can come in. SW doesn't think this is possible. SW asks if there is a person by the name of Flemming in there and says that he has a birthday and his family passes on greetings. S says she'll pass it on.

Tape Seventeen - Sept. 15: DR says it's nice to hear Suniva's voice. S: "It is?" DR: "Yes, it is." MS gets on and says that there is another delegation coming in. S asks about John Stevens and MS says that they are in the process of bringing him in, but he's in North Dakota right now. MS leaves. Rob gets on the phone and DR says that his mother Joan is flying in on Sunday and is looking forward to seeing him. Rob says that he'll see her sometime.

Next call: DR calls in and speaks to MS, who is in the camp. MS says that they'll be leaving immediately with one extra passenger. MS says that there is one other thing that the camp wants read out. MS says that there has been a lot of encroachment last night and the camp wants the police to pull back over the next couple of days during the ceremonies. DR says that he'll tell his commanders. MS says it's difficult to negotiate and hold ceremonies with explosions going on and they want to see a sign of good faith from the police. DR says that he gives his word that he will call back with an answer. MS says that there is a male coming out with the team.

Next call: Garth on phone with DR. DR says that regarding request, there will be no flares tonight and there will be no intrusive actions by police. DR is planning on bringing in John Stevens to 100 Mile House tomorrow and then bringing him in with MS.

Next call - Sept. 16: SW talks with Suniva and says that DR has gone out to pick up John Stevens, but will be a couple of hours. MS and Jeannette and Dave have gone out with DR. SW says that John won't be able to come out to the camp until tomorrow morning. Suniva asks if a can of coffee could be brought out tomorrow so they can make some for John. SW says that there shouldn't be any trouble with that.

Next call: "Don" gets on from police. He says that things are a little slow, but that John will come out tomorrow in the morning. Don says that he spoke to OJ, who came out yesterday, and he said that there might be some confusion about the agreement made with Lyle James. Don says that an agreement was made between Lyle James and the Canoe Creek Band to allow the Sundance to continue, but a consensus would have to be made between all three parties. Don asks for SF. SF gets on and Don says that her father called in to say that they were celebrating her niece's birthday. SF appreciates this. Don says that the radio reception is better now. He repeats for SF the agreement regarding the Sundance. P gets on. Don repeats agreement for P. P asks about John and Don says that things are moving slowly, but John should be in tomorrow morning.

Next call - Sept. 17: DR tells camp that John Stevens and his group are coming in shortly, in two vans.

LB - that's the end of the tapes and asks that they be made the next exhibit.

L/ JF - Next witness (#61): Sgt. Dennis Ryan (DR) - 26 years on force. Now in Kamloops SubDivision Drug Section.

J notes ST not here and GW will cover for him.

JF - DR was called by Brian Turner at Kamloops SubDivision. He attended a two week course to learn negotiations. He was briefed Aug. 28 by Moulton. DR understood that he would be backup for Cpl. Bruce Cameron. He would also work with Mike Webster. Following his arrival into 100 Mile House and a talk with Cameron, it was decided that DR would be the primary negotiator. Primary negotiator is the person who actually speaks to the people. Backup negotiator is note-taker and coach and will also think of ways to open up conversations. As primary negotiator, DR was involved in formulating a plan for dealing with the camp. Prior to his arrival, he hadn't developed anything, except to speak to the camp as soon as possible.

On Aug. 28, he began speaking to camp after Mercredi began communications. He first had a meeting with the Chilcotin people, including Antoine Archie and Mercredi. Following meeting, Mercredi got on phone and spoke to Wolverine and Percy. Mercredi hung up and then called back later when he introduced DR.

Following this introduction, he formulated plan. He wanted to keep lines of communication open and to address demands and concerns. Ultimate goal was not to negotiate and to have people come out after putting their weapons down without any bloodshed. Primary demand he dealt with was getting Bruce Clark in and finding out the status of David Pena.

Negotiators didn't make decisions, management team did. Management team was initially ? and ?, but this was eventually changed to Olfert, Hall, Dick Smith, Moulton, Kembel, Edwards and Bass. Team would give direction to the negotiating team.

DR says that he was aware of the general situation at Gustafsen Lake. He is saying that he understood that officers had been hit. HR objects that this doesn't further the case at all because it's only that he believes what the RCMP told him. JF says that this kind of testimony has been led before. J says that this has already been said and we shouldn't dwell longer on it.

First negotiating team was made up of DR, Cameron and Doug Hartl from Vernon. Cpl. McGinnis was leader of second team for awhile and then changed to Wylie. Second team made up of Smawley, Lazone, Robertson and Demerais.

First team was for calling into the camp. Second team was for getting people together and finding third party intermediators. Third party intermediators are people that do what they're told by police, as well as act as trustworthy liaisons. These would include using family members and medicine people or holy people. This included people like Jackie Jones, SF's sister and father, David Belleau, Madeleine Gregoire (a holy person from the Okanagan), Ovide Mercredi, Marlowe Sam, Jeannette Armstrong, Orville Looking Horse and John Stevens.

They were set up in a trailer. Police learned that the camp had a radio phone, which was not secure, as anyone with a phone on that frequency or a scanner could listen. They used a person in a switching building who shut down the frequency when the police weren't using this phone. As well as using the trailer, they also worked out of an RV parked at the 1020 marker. They were able to communicate from here, but they needed a person to throw a switch from the Timothy mountain repeater station.

There were two communications going on. One was secure and one wasn't. Mobile One, in the RV, was secure and the transmissions from the trailer in 100 Mile House weren't.

DR says Dr. Webster was hired as an expert by the police force by Moulton. HR says that if he's such an expert, then Crown can bring him in. He doesn't want someone else boostering the person. DR says that Webster was used for screening third party intermediaries and making suggestions. Webster wasn't there for all the talks.

DR says that some of the third party intermediaries were allowed in by management after being screened and allowed to be searched. These people had to not be concerned for their own safety, had to allow themselves to be searched going in, as well as going out, and to use police-supplied cars. These people would be left at the 1029 marker. Some of these people would be questioned afterwards and some of them took messages in.

DR says that Bruce Clark was suggested by Wolverine. DR was aware of this person and he was eventually let in on Aug. 31. On two occasions, Clark was allowed to speak on the phone - on Aug. 29 at 18:52 hours and on the 31st prior to going in. Before Clark came out, Clark asked that a document be read. DR was with Clark when he read this out. Clark read from document and had bullet casings in his hand. After that, he went to 100 Mile House with DR and Cameron. Later, DR got a copy of the document. DR later asked Clark for the casings and a video Clark said he had, but Clark refused to give it up.

Later, Clark wrote a letter to him on DR's computer. JF asks if the correspondence could be given to the jury so they can review it during the testimony. MA says there's a letter that he'd like to deal with in the absence of the jury, but JF says that that letter isn't in this pile. MA doesn't mind then.

DR agrees that Clark read out a document to the press. He has a copy. It is titled "Affidavit", which is apparently signed by Trond Halle and Bruce Clark. DR says that there was another request to draft a document in DR's presence in the trailer. This came about because DR had asked Clark how this could all be resolved. Clark wrote a one sentence letter to the Governor General that should go to the Queen, which states that Canada would take no exception to the Queen expediting looking into the issues of law. Clark was also concerned about the police attacking the camp. DR passed the letter on to his command team.

The next day, DR received a letter from Clark to DR. It said that yesterday, the two had made an agreement and now the police had broken it. DR says that he had heard from the media that the letter had been passed to the Attorney General of B.C. and had been stopped there. DR heard this from the media before he officially got the news himself. DR understood that his superiors had considered the letter and had passed it on to government officials, who considered it and sent back a response to DR. DR sent the response to Clark.

Regarding the letter he got from Clark, DR understood that Clark was upset because the letter had not been forwarded to Ottawa, as had been promised. DR got a response that the letter would go no further than the province. The Attorney General of B.C. said that the RCMP were contracted to police the province and they are involved in a current police investigation.

He received a second letter dated Sept. 2nd. DR understood that Clark had left the area on the afternoon of the 1st. Second letter was again of Clark's displeasure with the police for not forwarding the letter to the federal level. DR says that he told Wolverine that the proposal had been rejected. DR looks at transcripts of radio call from Sept. 2, page 2, where he tells Wolverine that Clark wrote him a letter that DR said he would pass on. DR agrees that this is the letter that Clark wrote him in the trailer. The following line has DR telling camp that it was rejected and not forwarded.

There is a request by Wolverine to have Clark patched through to camp, but DR says the commander already said no. Clark never did call back.

In a later call, DR said that he didn't want any more incidents like the previous night. DR said this was in reference to a trip device that was set off by either an animal or a camp occupant.

In another call, DR said that an agreement was being worked on with Lyle James through the initiative of natives. DR explains that this was made with Mercredi, the Chilcotin Tribal Council and Lyle James. DR says that he brought it up to Wolverine because the media was talking about it. DR wanted the camp to be aware of that.

Wolverine says that this is misleading the jury because the Chilcotin Nation is next to the Shuswap Nation and the agreement with Lyle James was actually being negotiated by Shuswap elected band councillors. J says that he can raise this with his counsel for cross-examination.

DR says that he was discussing the agreement with the camp to show that there was work going on that wasn't a police initiative. JF tries to get the agreement made an exhibit, but HR objects that this witness can't lead this. J agrees.

DR says that he understood John Stevens to be someone the camp revered. His name first came up on Aug. 30 by Madeleine Gregoire, when she spoke to Percy. Wolverine also brought it up. DR tried to contact Stevens a number of times. Marlowe Sam and Jeannette Armstrong helped to get him to the camp. Stevens was eventually brought in on Sept. 17. DR says that Stevens' involvement was crucial. DR flew out with Sam and Armstrong to speak to Stevens in Medicine Hat, Alberta. They had a ceremony and Stevens said that he would drive out overnight. Stevens talked the camp into putting down their arms and coming out.

DR says that Sam was a holy man or a spiritual advisor in the Okanagan, as was Armstrong. DR says that Marlowe brought out four people before the 17th and drove out the remaining 17 on Sept. 17th.

In the radio transcripts, there is mention of Marlowe speaking of someone coming out with the negotiator team. Team included Dave Belleau, Mike Arnouse, Henry Saul and ?. No one came out that day.

Sept. 9, he went with Smawley to a meeting and a deal was struck with Charlene Belleau, Gordon Sebastian and Peter Antoine and someone else to act as a liaison between the camp and police.

Jury is asked to step out while they deal with another exhibit. JF wants to submit a letter by Hall that accompanies a "no-go" map. JF wants it put in with this witness because he gave it to the native negotiators and they gave it back to the police, which JF claims is an indication that the camp had seen it.

MA says that this is the letter that Defense tried to admit earlier. MA notes that Rick Hall is the one who drafted the letter and he's not being called as a witness. MA says that Hall should be called and the letter admitted through him. J looks at letter and map. MA says this has direct bearing on the shooting of Sept. 12 and Kembel's testimony that he wasn't aware of the no-go zone. MA says that the letter appears to be to Charlene Belleau, Sebastian and Antoine. There is a series of letters that go back and forth indicating intense negotiations. The Crown is trying to put this in isolation. Belleau and Hall should be called in. MA wants it put in context. J has trouble with this because of relevance too. He wants to see a letter from the RCMP to the accused. This witness only has a letter from a number of people to someone else. MA wants the letter, but only in context with other letters.

HR says that DR is being portrayed as a person rationally putting facts into the camp. And now a shooting is brought up. HR says that it is the management team making the decisions. A letter and a map go in and then come out with some scribbles added to the map. A couple of days later, a person is almost killed within an area declared safe. The Crown has a duty to put forward all aspects of evidence. HR says that we are only hearing part of the story.

J says that this witness cannot say that the letter went into the camp. It's only hearsay that this woman took it in.

JF notes that in the radio transcripts of negotiations, there is reference to the perimeter being too small. HR says that the Crown may call these radio conversations "negotiations", but DR is not negotiating, he is only relaying information from the management staff. HR says that the Crown is trying to shield the Superintendent with his man in the field. "The people establishing policy have to come forward and relate their policy." Hall and Belleau have to come in.

J says that he's only dealing with the document now. His concern is that there is no relevance linking the document to this witness, so he will not make it an exhibit. J adds that there can be no compulsion put on the Crown to force Hall in to testify.

AB/ Jury in.

JF cont'd with Ryan - DR says that the team went in to the camp Sept. 10 and brought a letter into the camp by Supt. Hall. DR agrees that he had a conversation with Wolverine that day. Wolverine wanted to discuss the perimeter. W: "We feel like a bunch of cows here." DR says he didn't give the map and letter to any other intermediaries. The intermediaries arrived in camp around 10:00 a.m. and he spoke to Wolverine around 2:00 p.m.

The letter from Hall is shown to DR and HR wants to ensure that this doesn't go to jury. J assures him it won't.

DR says that he took the request to increase the perimeter to his superiors and they told him negative, so he said this to Wolverine. In the radio transcripts, DR asks if there was still a cease-fire in effect and DR says that this is where he told Wolverine that the request had been rejected.

On Aug. 31, DR said that he spoke to his superiors about an imaginary perimeter shrinking, but this was nothing he spoke to the camp about. He says this refers to tightening the police perimeter. HR wonders what the purpose of this is. JF says that she wants DR to clarify what he meant by the word "perimeter" when he spoke to the camp. DR says that saying that they were tightening the perimeter was to convey to the camp that the police were in the middle of containing the camp.

On tape 13, there is a reference to two people leaving the camp perimeter while David Belleau was in the camp. DR says that he told Belleau this to let the camp know that people were leaving the perimeter that the police had established.

The next day, on Sept. 11, another team was going in, made up of Belleau and Johnny Johnson. DR says that it wasn't unusual for him not to be made aware of operational plans like the plan to blow up the red truck.

The first call he made on the 11th was at 12:36 p.m. He said then that he assured the camp safety within the camp perimeter. DR explains that this meant that they wouldn't be overrun or there would be no move to go in and arrest the camp inhabitants as long as negotiations were going on.

HR - DR claims that he was negotiating in good faith with the encampment. He agrees that good faith applies to his actions and his words, but says it depends on the circumstances. DR can't say whether he felt the people in the camp were terrorists or not. DR agrees that he was chosen because of his background - agrees that this was the largest operation he ever dealt with in his career. DR agrees that he was briefed by the management team and felt comfortable that he knew everything that he needed to know. He agrees that during negotiations, he wants to understand what people are saying and the people have to understand what he is saying. DR says that this is necessary for rapport-building.

DR understood that following his initial briefing, there was to be negotiations to get the people out of the camp. HR suggests that if this didn't work, then the police would be sent in to remove them. DR: "I have no knowledge of the tactical aspects." DR says that he told camp that the police were tightening the perimeter to contain them. HR says that they would need a battalion to contain them. DR says that this was intended to be a psychological perimeter in the camp members' mind. HR says this sounds like mumbo jumbo, but DR says that this isn't - it's a tactic.

HR suggests that DR implied that if the camp members were to leave the perimeter, then the police would have killed them. HR asks if the rules of engagement would have allowed the police to shoot the members if they didn't know that they were out of a boundary line. HR: "Surely you weren't going to allow the police to shoot someone who is trespassing." DR says that he just didn't want any haphazard conflicts arising.

HR says that when DR tells the camp that they will be safe if they stay within the boundaries, then he must have known what the tactical side was doing. DR says that there are reasons to not know what the tactical side is doing. HR says that because a tactical member is about to shoot someone in a no-go zone, then DR would have liked to have known that. DR agrees.

HR suggests that if someone is to have a tactical position, then DR would like to know it. DR agrees that he would like to know that from management staff - if they wanted to tell him. DR says that they had meetings with tactical staff and the incident of the red pickup was never discussed. HR says that at the same time, DR was in the process of sending elders up the road. DR agrees that he would have liked to have known that. DR says that they continued to negotiate afterwards, but agrees that his negotiator position had been undermined by the tactical move against the truck.

HR says that when a man was shot at on the 12th, this also undermined DR's position. DR again agrees that he would have liked to have known about the request to fire prior to the shooting. DR says that there was a limit to the idea of a safe zone and HR understands that creating such a zone wouldn't mean that a camp member could walk to the edge of the perimeter and shoot freely at police. DR agrees that he would have liked to have known what the tactical side was doing, so that when speaking to Wolverine he could keep his cool and not have anyone upset the balance. DR says that there are two sides of the house and it would have been nice if both sides could work together, but that might have been a management decision. HR wonders if there isn't an inherent conflict between having a negotiating team seeking peace and a tactical team seeking an armed settlement. DR understands that there are two sides to every conflict.

DR didn't know that the native officers that came into the camp earlier were invited for coffee, but understood that they were negotiating. DR was only aware that the native cops had been there. He had spoken to Charlie Andrew, but it didn't sound as congenial as HR put it. DR said that Andrew told him that he wasn't totally welcome there and he didn't feel safe there.

In the map that DR sent in, there was a perimeter on it. DR doesn't remember if the map had been redrawn by the camp or by Gordon Sebastian. DR agrees that he wasn't dealing directly with Percy or Wolverine, but instead was dealing with third party intermediaries. HR asks if after the side issues are dealt with, doesn't the final product have to go back to the principals involved. DR expected that the camp had confidence in the intermediaries, but HR suggests that just because they were talking doesn't mean there is trust and in the end DR had to go back to the principals. DR suggests that in the end it worked. HR says what worked was that he had a huge force there and it was a miracle that no one was killed. DR says that he takes some credit, but says most of the credit goes to the native "spiritualists".

HR says that DR is too modest and that lives were traded for tobacco. HR remembers natives trading half of Saskatchewan for some farming implements. HR says that when DR asked what brand of tobacco Wolverine wanted, he next asked what Wolverine would give in return. DR didn't think that he was trading people for tobacco and had no sense of irony of the situation.

When Clark came in, DR said that there was a possibility that things wouldn't work out. HR says that there's also a possibility that when he jumps off a cliff, he might go up, but he still won't jump off. DR says that he thought that Clark might facilitate the camp's surrender. HR: "You're saying that with a straight face?"

DR says that he didn't concern himself with believing whether there was a chance that the requests for a third party tribunal would happen. HR says that the last case to go to the Privy Council from B.C. was 50 years ago. DR says that he would go to any measure to see a bloodless resolution and if that meant sending a letter for Clark, then he would do that. HR wonders if this doesn't mean setting things backwards when it didn't work out. DR says that if he hadn't have sent Clark in, then we'd be here today and you'd be asking why they didn't send him in. HR doesn't think so, but it's as good a reply as any after 4:00 p.m.

   * Day 64: Monday, October 28         * Day 67: Thursday, October 31
   * Day 65: Tuesday, October 29        * Friday, November 1 - no report
   * Day 66: Wednesday, October 30