Trial, Week 4: Summary - August 13


WEEK 4: AUGUST 12 - 16, 1996

   * Day 10: Monday, August 12                * Day 13: Thursday, August 15
   * Day 11: Tuesday, August 13               * Day 14: Friday, August 16 
   * Day 12: Wednesday, August 14


Edited by Roz Royce and Trond Halle, from notes by Trond Halle (Defendant)

Posted by FreeMedia

TUESDAY, AUGUST 13, 1996 - DAY 16

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Franklin missing. J not sure how to deal with it. DC wants to carry on. LB says it's hard to think she's absconded if she informed sheriffs that she's in transit.

GW asks to use court time instead of standing down. Informs court that Francis Dick is having transportation trouble. Says JoJo doesn't have anyone to put up surety but will explore further.

DC - Says next witness may ID Edward "Pancho" Dick and he's not here. LB notes that Franklin, Shadow Potulicki and "OJ" Pitawanakwat missing and witness is to ID them too. J decides to stand down.

Back at 10:55. Franklin here and apologizes to Jones. He shakes head. J asks Franklin to have someone cover for her in future.

HR - Wants all counsel to get written instructions from clients to proceed in all circumstances in the future.

J - agrees with HR. Had hoped accused would respect Jones. Will take away $40 if people are late at 10 am and 1:30 pm.

Jones didn't realize he was being used to get people to get to court. J disagrees.

LB - Next witness (#16): Lorraine Heinzl - Was at Gustafsen Lake in August '94 first time. Camped there in trailer and boat with another couple. Took main logging road from 100 Mile House, along lakeshore to camp spot with dock. Says she went to look at sundance grounds when woman came up behind her and scared her. She was asked what she was doing and asked if woman minded if she looked around. Woman said yes, so Heinzl left. Saw teepee. '94 was a "successful camping trip". On Aug 19, 1995 she went there with husband, daughter and son-in law. Daughter and son-in-law took a separate truck. A woman named Shelagh and other man came down and spoke to them. Heinzl asked if it was fine to camp there and Shelagh said yes. This year she saw more "natives" there than year before. They were in the "native area". Two persons came from path north of campsite around 3 or 4 in afternoon. Woman described as white, 20- 25 years old with brown hair and loose clothing. Man was native, 20-25, shoulder length hair, stocky with felt hat. They were talking about a war zone and described shooting. She wanted to know what they were shooting at. They then invited them up to camp but Heinzl declined. Visit lasted half an hour. Husband and son-in-law fished. Lorraine and daughter walked along lakeshore eastbound. While returning, they saw "no trespassing" signs so returned to camp along lake shore. No other contact that day. Next day (Sunday) they saw horses that came down to camp which they fed sugar. Horses returned to native camp. Son-in-law and daughter left Monday at 12:15 pm so Lorraine and husband went fishing. They get firewood from west of camp near cowboy round up area from dead fall. When they were out fishing, they saw 3 people wandering through campsite looking through truck and trailer windows. They returned to camp and one of the men began using vulgar language. She asked if there was anything she could help him with. That's when stocky man from day before began swearing at her calling her a bitch and using the F-word. He threatened to come into the water and beat the "effing" shit out of her. She told him she didn't agree with his language which got him madder. Husband told her to shut up. 3 men were carrying a drum and short ladder. Men put drum into water.

Lorraine asked if they could put drum into other side of dock so they could dock boat. Men complied, put drum in water and placed rock on it telling them not to touch the "effing" drum. One man in combat fatigues (no shirt) and tattoos when asked where he was from said Ontario. Other man did sign over fire and explained it was to "ward off evil spirits". Couple docked and went for food after men left. She was too scared to dock until they did leave. Also too scared to look at tattoos of tallest man. He was solid with "muscles on muscles". He was quietest of three, 20-25 years old. Third man, smallest of men, only spoke when asked by husband about why he made sign over fire. This man wore two pony-tails. Says he was oldest, in 30's. After men left, they sat and had drink discussing things. Men came back 2 hours later to get drum and noticed couple had gas, but she said they only had enough for the boat. Men picked up drum and went back to camp. Stayed Monday and had no other visitor. On Tuesday when they went fishing, she brought binoculars to see if anyone came down. Saw blond child, red hair man and dog come down to shore to watch couple fishing in middle of lake on east end. When Shelagh came down, she asked for a cigarette. Shelagh noticed husband had Austrian accent. They spoke for a while and Shelagh said she was from Ontario and here for vacation. Lorraine told Shelagh not to come to camp when they weren't there and Shelagh agreed. This 2nd visit was after 3 men had been there. Noticed Shelagh was sitting near trees and Lorraine refused to go fishing until Shelagh went back to native camp. One of those days, Macleans reporter asked where native camp was. He took their names and Lorraine asked him to tell police they were there "because we feared for our life." But they stayed there fishing. On Wednesday, they saw lots of vehicles entering and leaving camp. They originally planned to leave that Saturday but changed it to Thursday. She was scared, but didn't tell husband. Husband did same. On Wednesday, they were 2 fish short of 20 limit. Said a red truck sat there and watched them all the time. They packed and as soon as truck left, they "hightailed" it out of there. Day before it had hailed and now road was muddy. Left at dusk. Lorraine told husband not to stop for anything after she closed gate. Husband drove slowly away until Lorraine caught up and hopped in. They drove non-stop to Cache Creek because husband was too scared to stop. They then went home to lower mainland. They hadn't seen news before or they wouldn't have gone up to the lake, but after they returned, they saw news so they went to police. On news she saw 3 men and Shelagh. IDs Shelagh in courtroom. Points at someone as older man, says she doesn't see man with tattoos because she can't see any arms. Can't ID man in courtroom who swore at her at lake. Can't ID "older man" but would on the TV news. Can't see or ID man with tattoos. When she spoke to police and looked at photographs, she ID'd threatening man and man in battle fatigues. When shown TV news, she ID'd all three men. LB closes until all accused here to continue ID.

ST - Asks about her fearing for her life. She first feared when she was threatened in the boat. On Saturday (August 19/95), Shelagh and man were very pleasant. Threatened Monday, left Wed. night. Macleans man there on Tuesday (Aug. 22) and he told them a little about what was going on. When hightailing it out of there, she wanted to go to police in 100 Mile House, but husband didn't want to. Same with Cache Creek. Went to police on Saturday (Aug. 26) because she was mad her holiday was cut short. When suggested that she wanted to stick around to catch limit, she denied it. Denies going to police because she saw news. Even when she called them "sir", she was run out of there. She's mad that she was run out. When she realized why she had been run out from the news, that's why she got mad.

"Didn't strike you as strange that a Macleans reporter was out to interview Indians in the middle of nowhere?" Claims she didn't know what was going on up there at time. Clarifies that older man wasn't Percy Rosette. Shelagh "annoyed me a bit but she was alright." Annoyed because Shelagh was waiting for her, but she wanted to be alone so they had to wait until she left. Tate suggests that she had "assumed Shelagh was waiting", Heinzl says "I don't assume anything." Admits she couldn't see Shelagh's eyes - "Don't be ridiculous!" Agrees Lake is pretty to look at for a long time.

GW - Admits she took beer up there, but says she only has beer after fishing. ("One a day when I'm fishing.") Husband drank rye. Wasn't happy and relaxed when Shelagh there. "I had to take a nerve pill because there was always someone there." Laughter. J says this isn't a cross- examination, it's turning into entertainment. First time she got along well with Shelagh and man. Says she respected "No Trespassing" signs. She didn't know of armed men trying to sneak into area on Aug 18. Though Shelagh and man told her this was a war zone and their lives were in danger, she didn't understand. Shelagh and man asked if Lorraine had seen any men in fatigues sneaking around. Up until daughter and son-in-law left, there was no trouble. She figures that was because there were two vehicles there then. Admits that she was camped where the nicest boat dock is located. No signs saying to stay away from dock. Only one was fouled mouth: "You wouldn't want to hear the language that came out of his mouth, it would curl your hair." (Jury laughs - one white male jury member in particular looses it and has convulsions of laughter while keeping his head down for approximately five minutes.) Other two were fine and answered questions with no trouble. Annoyed that people were going through their camp site. Didn't know of June eviction notice serving or of history of area. The only thing preventing them from leaving was the people watching them all the time. "If you've never been stalked, you wouldn't know what it was like." Says there was always someone watching them. Couldn't identify those people. L/ GW - Macleans reporter on foot. Describes him as young and thin. Didn't see any police or police vehicles. She knew about the sundance so didn't go up to lake in July, but went in August figuring it was over. She hoped that because media was there, police would know they were there. On way out, she wasn't stopped by police. Says two native vehicles tried to play chicken with husband. At home, she debated what to do but people told her not to get involved because natives would harass her. At home watching news, she saw 3 men. Doesn't remember if 3 natives on TV spoke. Went to police on Sat (Aug. 26). Only saw tattooed man on Thursday's TV at home. Saw him later on police videos of news. Watched them 2 months ago when police officer came over to her home and played tapes on her VCR. First time she ID'd man was two months ago. When it was suggested that she had no reason to remember the foul-mouthed man, she replied that she was scared out of her wits. She did remember that the foul- mouthed man was "not the man that had tattoos and was built nice."

DC - Says she saw extensive coverage of event two months ago and has talked a lot about it with husband and family. Clarifies that "they" didn't threaten her - only one did. Says a long time ago, she had natives living in her home boarding and wasn't afraid. "Now when I see natives, I cringe." Says she was "stalked" by them. DC notes she never used word stalked in report to police - used "watched".

DC notes that she never mentioned to police about being shot at. She clarifies that she was told by Shelagh and man they "couldn't guarantee our safety when the shooting starts." Clarifies that she spoke first to the 3 men when she asked if there was anything she could help them with. In report, she says she begrudged calling him "sir" after he swore at her. DC asks why husband told her to shut up if she wasn't arguing with him. She says she wasn't arguing. Wasn't aware that sundance grounds were sacred. In 1994 she went to take a look at the sundance grounds when a native woman stopped her. Heinzl asked if it would be okay to take a look and the native woman replied that she would appreciate it if she didn't. When she said man who made sign over fire said it was to "ward off evil spirits", DC suggests this line comes from B-movies. She insists that's what he said. Aug. 26th police statement says 2 men came down to get drum. She thought it was 3. When husband asked about drum, quiet man told him it was to communicate to their forefathers. She still insists there was mention of evil spirits. Quiet man spoke native language and wore no camouflage. When asked if he was a spiritual person she said, "I don't know what a spiritual person looks like." When she was closing gate and 2 vehicles came towards him, she told husband they had insurance and their vehicle was bigger than the others, so run them down.

No one told her to leave area, but when she saw all the vehicles going to 100 Mile House, she knew camp was getting supplies and they might never leave. She wanted smokes in town because nerves were shattered, but husband too scared to stop. Extent of terror was one person. "It only takes one person to scare the wits out of you." MA - Annoyed that Shelagh bummed smokes and now has found out she has more money than she has. Has taken nerve pills for last 2 or 3 years, 2 or 3 times a week. Can't remember what prescription pills are called. Says she doesn't mix alcohol with drugs. The door to their camper wasn't tampered with, but a steel rod for fireplace grill was missing and she said they stole it. Husband allowed one drink a day. MA suggests that there was a 26 oz bottle of rye involved - Lorraine shoots back "we always buy 40 oz and any beer cans in boat would have been from my son." Re: cars leaving camp on Wednesday: if they weren't going to town to buy supplies, "they were going to pick up their cheques". She made statement with husband. MA says Cst. Tremblay came on around lunch time on July 16, 1996. Watched videos for 2 hours. She watched TV news following return home. She said she told 3 natives that she had a cell phone and son was expecting phone call every day or he would call police. "I was bluffing them." MA suggests that there wasn't a drum being placed in the water and she shoots back "That's a barefaced lie." Insists that there was a drum. Didn't tell police of bluff.

SF - Pleasantries exchanged. Didn't know of Lyle James trying to evict sundancers. Natives didn't tell her of standing on constitutional grounds. Was only asked if they had seen men in camouflage. Men told her camouflaged police with assault weapons in trees. She didn't believe it because year before it was so quiet. Shelagh suggests that men were scared, but Lorraine insists she was scared.

LB - wants it stated for record which accused are missing. Names read out by Madam Registrar.

JF - Next witness (#17): Cpl. Richard Bigland - 23 years on force stationed at 100 Mile House since '90. First there in June '92 for investigation. Came in from north end of lake, from west to east along lake. Saw log cook structure. Since then, he was there every year. In '95, went there a couple of times. 1st time on July 20 with Cst. Andrew. At fenceline, Andrew had conversation with those at camp. Bigland mostly watched. 6-10 people at camp. Recognized Percy Rosette. First saw him in '92. ID's Percy in courtroom. Cst. Andrew spoke to a male and a couple of females. Describes male as native, 40s, slim with shoulder length hair. Was carrying a stick with an eagle head on it. ID's Doc in galley. Doc waves. Knew him as Doc and John Hill. Also recognized another male in camp area.

AB/ JF - Cpl. Bigland cont'd. - Other male was native in 40's, stocky with salt and pepper hair. ID's Jones in courtroom. Another man in military garb ran from bush to cook shack. Remembers 2 females, one with dark and the other with blond hair. On 26 July, he went for a routine patrol to camp. This time he noticed a crudely painted sign that said "No Trespassing". Also noticed some earth work, some digging 70 yards from fence which he thought was a bunker. He told Cst. Andrew and took a picture. Not sure if it was there on July 20. Went to camp, took off sidearms, and went in and had coffee with them ("Very cordial"). Doc there. There for 45-50 minutes. Noticed an injury on Doc's back and a woman that put ointment on it. When they left, they removed "No Trespassing" sign as per discussion with Doc. They had all agreed that there should be free access to lake front. They drove west along lake shore just at dock area and noticed a person walking 150 yards away, walking in westerly direction carrying stick like object slung over shoulder like a firearm. Too far away to tell for sure if it was a firearm. Continued west out gate and went north on road. Saw tree on side of road that had been cut up. Took picture of sign, earth work and tree on side of road with instant photo. Shows photos. Entered as exhibits.

HR - Asks about "bunker". Clarifies that it is an earth working dugout. Couldn't see how deep it is from 70 yards. Admits it could be a foot deep. Based on observation, he couldn't say it was a bunker. Says it was a quiet scene. Saw Ignace who was only standing around. Admits he wouldn't go down a dark alley in Vancouver without sidearms. Says they disarmed because Cst. Wood suggested it, so to converse with them - he was under the impression that there was to be no sidearms on the sundance site. No concern of a police nature. Took advice from native officer who knew more of situation. On July 26, with Cst. Wood. "We certainly had no conflict." Doc spoke much. Conversation with natives was interesting. New to him. There were lots of ideas on how to resolve situation, but it wasn't divided between native and white officers. Only demonstration he knew of in 100 Mile House was in support of police, not against anyone. Never saw any firearms in camp. On July 20 with Cst. Andrew, he saw UN flag and Canadian flag with imprint of native in the middle. There was discussion of stolen items from a cowboy. No hostilities directed against officers. Felt relationship had improved when there was intent to call police in future regarding problems. Taking down "No Trespassing" sign a good indication, but all suggestions weren't positive. Can't say what actions were negative. Job that day was to maintain peace and have discussions. On July 20, there was an investigation into theft, but there was nothing they found. He has reservations saying that all was peaceful but no evidence to support that - only hearsay.

Admits someone told him it was a bunker - a native. Says Mr. Hill told him hole was to protect the people there. Never investigated hole. Saw tree on side of road and spoke to people about it but didn't get any leads. Says he and native officers shared line of approach dealing with natives in camp.

ST - Was at 100 Mile House when Staff Sgt. Lindsay was there until he retired. Aware of situation between James and Rosette in July '92. Discussed the situation with Lindsay many times. They discussed fine line between matter being criminal or civil. From '92-'95, no criminal charges attributed to any of the accused. From speaking to Rosette, he can't recall any of the conversations he had. Sundance was mentioned in 100 Mile Free Press over the years. Admits that dispute over the land was reported. Doesn't recall Lindsay wanting land surveyed to determine if James owned land. When Sarich took over, Gustafsen Lake mentioned as a possible problem situation in the future. Spoke to Lyle James in '92. On July 20, 1995, part of complaint had to do with a cowboy's stolen horse hobbles. Following further conversation with the cowboy Turnbull, he determined that there was nothing to the complaint.

* Day 10: Monday, August 12 * Day 
13: Thursday, August 15 * Day 11: Tuesday, 
August 13 * Day 14: Friday, August 16 * 
Day 12: Wednesday, August 14