* Day 10: Monday, August 12                * Day 13: Thursday, August 15
   * Day 11: Tuesday, August 13               * Day 14: Friday, August 16 
   * Day 12: Wednesday, August 14

Abbreviations used in notes:

DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)

LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)

J = Judge

Cpl. Bigland continued from yesterday - No questions from GW, DC, and MA.

SF - Doc told him that matter would have to be dealt with at level of Queen and Privy Council - the issue of native land claims. Mentioned 1763 Royal Proclamation and Papal Bull. Says Papal Bull had to do with Pope dealing with native people in the past. Doc spoke in vain that they were on unceded Shuswap land. Said Doc said they had a right to the land.

JF - Says Sarich is next witness and LB is on his way. J stands down jury. (3 pairs of shorts in jury)

J - re MA application for bail for Jones Ignace. An error of law may have happened earlier but Judge applied correct tests. He may just have decided something that another may not have chosen. Agrees that he misperceived to some degree the defense's argument.

Jones asked something by GW. Jones says that Crown and judge know JoJo was 160 miles away for indictment. This country is bound by constitutional law and is being ignored. Puts it to the judge that the Crown has to prove it has title to the land.

LB - Next witness (#18): Staff Sgt. Martin Sarich (always looking at judge, back turned to lawyers, away from jury) - 26 years on force. At 100 Mile House Detachment since Jan. 4, 1995. Detachment commander in charge of 15. Describes jurisdiction of detachment. Canim Lake Reserve included in area. Chief there is Antoine Archie. Area includes Gustafsen Lake. Before, he was in Kelowna for 2 1/2 years. Before that, at RCMP HQ, before that in Burnaby. Principle residence is in Kelowna but couldn't sell house. Had bachelor suite in 100 Mile House. Now wife and him purchased house in 100 Mile House area. Has Tassell, Andrew, Wood, Bigland, Hicks, Bomber, Horton, Leslie.

Lindsay was Staff Sgt. until mid '94. Hicks had been acting commander until Sarich got there. In Feb '95, contacted by Lyle James' lawyer, Januszczak of Ladner Downs, in first week of Feb. Then had files given to him. He and lawyer discussed ways of dealing with situation. "As police, we look for alternatives." Looked at getting James to getting a court order. Said this civil process was most prudent and viable option. Told this to lawyer. In March '95, they spoke again and subsequently closed the file. On June 13, 1995, he learned an eviction notice had been prepared. Doesn't recall speaking of an eviction notice as had been prepared. He remembered suggesting a court order. Wasn't involved in serving notice. Doesn't recall specifically if he directed Hicks in that matter. For trespass notices, he would prefer parties to serve them themselves unless there is a request to keep the peace. Matter came up again but doesn't remember date - he was taking a course in Kelowna. Asked Cst. Tassell to coordinate any files that may be connected to group at encampment.

On June 22, '95, Cst. Wood and Staff Sgt. Porter and Sarich made patrol to Gustafsen Lake area to familiarize both he and Porter with area. Went to camp in early afternoon and stood at fence. Doesn't recall reason Porter was in 100 Mile House, but took advantage of opportunity to show him area. Cst. Andrew there because he had already contacted camp. Met John "Doc" Hill there and spoke generally about Sundance. They were there 10-15 minutes. Wanted to know when sundance would terminate - July 12. Went back to 100 Mile House. Assigned members Andrew and Wood to make daily patrols to camp. Andrew was main person. Cst. Findley assisted too from Williams Lake.

Police objective was to maintain rapport and to work toward having Sundance cancelled or location changed. Role also to liaison with other native and community members to see what kind of support Sundance would have. Also to gain intelligence in case something arose. Chose Cst. Andrew because he was from area, of Shuswap ancestry and familiar with culture and protocols. Best resource for task like if he had an Asian or other culture. Cst. Wood would learn a lot and could develop relationship too - he was liaison for detachment. Cst. Findley needed to cover empty shifts and maintain continuity. Three were keeping him informed. On June 25, 1995 (long silence) he can't recall exactly. He had meeting with chiefs of Cariboo Tribal Council to discuss ways of having Sundance cancelled in its entirety. Present was Antoine Archie, Agnes Snow, Lenny Sellars (Soda Creek), Bruce Mack (administrator for Tribal Council), Wood, Andrew and Sarich. Sarich concerned about events and reports coming from officers. Felt it was desirable to cancel ceremony. Hoped to influence group with members of community. Wanted to know what support Sundancers and RCMP would have if they had to use force to remove camp. Had band make resolution to persuade Sundancers to cancel.

On June 27, met with Mr. Messner, Lyle, Don and Dale James in Detachment. Discussed options available. Messner is local counsel for Lyle James that took over from lower mainland counsel who was too far away. Sarich assisted James in getting new counsel. In July, Sundance went ahead. Police involvement included continuing patrols, maintaining contact, gathering intelligence, and noting observations. Satisfied that he understood what was happening based on visual observation from fence and area. Following Sundance, he understood a number of people remained. That gave him concern because he understood that usually people would leave following ceremony. Continued patrols through July and trying to get people to leave by speaking to Bands and community. Claims they were seeking a peaceful resolution. Hopes for peaceful resolution began to change from reports and incidents. After long meeting with Cariboo Tribal Council, they were working hard to set up a meeting. On August 12th, early morning, he got call from Williams Lake jurisdiction that gave him concern. Begins to talk of incident and ST asks jury to leave.

ST - Says this incident's only connection to accused is blood relation to person in camp and vehicle. This had been brought up before and Sarich is going to bring up something that will prejudice the accused.

LB - says this is an incident that causes the police to make decisions. Wants to lead that Ernie Archie and Pena were linked to camp and that cache of weapons was found. Not enough to say an incident occurred because it doesn't reveal reasonableness of resulting action. This needed to explain shift in police action from discussions to ordering in of ERT team.

ST - Notes charges were stayed and that one of them may be agent provocateur.

HR - Wants to deal with Archie as agent provocateur that has entered a police program to change his identity and made a witness. Wants then to be able to ask Sarich about motives and understanding of this. Says that leading something not for the truth of matter is way of fogging real issues.

LB - reassures that he will not do this.

MB/ J tells jury that there are exceptions to allowing hearsay like now because witness's actions were a result of this hearsay.

LB - Sarich says meeting with chiefs of Cariboo Tribal Council was to arrange meeting with people at the camp. He went with Cst. Andrew to camp July 30/95. Andrew spoke to Percy and Sarich spoke to Hill. Gate was open and they were inside fenceline by 30 yards. On Aug 1, in Alkali Lake, they had meeting with community. At that time, there were suggestions to use force but he didn't want to. Wanted a peaceful resolution. Following that, took back road to lake with Antoine Archie. Saw Ernie Archie and Mary Pena. Antoine and Sarich weren't welcome. Didn't want to deal with him as white person and didn't recognize elected chief. Saw OJ and spoke to him casually but Percy never arrived. ID's Toby, Percy and OJ in courtroom. Aug. 11 and 12, he was in 100 Mile House.

On August 12th, he was told an arrest had been made near Williams Lake on Fraser River. Told that on the evening of Aug. 11th, fisheries officers said they found Ernie Archie and David Pena with many weapons - some illegal. Both in lock-up in Williams Lake. Sarich told Williams Lake of their issues and said they should share data. May have called Crown Counsel too. HR asks him not to pad testimony. He was told and saw later there was an AK-47, 9mm Glock pistol, high powered rifle, knives, garrote, nun-chucks, large capacity magazines, ammo for AK and for .22 and pistol - 200 rounds. Explains AK is high powered assault rifle used for putting out large amount of ammo, is fully automatic. Says magazines hold ammo. Limit is 5 rounds. Garrote is length of fine wire with handles on both sides used for strangulation. Reaction to information was of concern. Visual proof of what he was informed of. Afraid that someone was eventually going to have a confrontation with them with bad results. Felt individuals weren't dealing in good faith wanting a meeting but having weapons in the countryside. Things weren't working and couldn't allow it to go further. Began to set up electric eyes to monitor movement into camp. Info coming from Csts. Andrew and Wood was good, but not as relevant as what covert probe could provide. Began making operational plan. From this point, plan development was in hands of Kamloops Command because of resources available there. Didn't feel 100 Mile House had the resources to handle it. Aware of ERT team from Kamloops SubDivision sent in August 17th and 18th. Was in original plan prepared by Cpl. Bigland. Hoped to gain info like numbers in camp, locations, locations of observation points, concealed weaponry and shelter, routes travelled in and out, booby traps, times of movements. Prior to probe, info came from members patrolling in there which was limited because they couldn't stroll around freely.

Other info came from Lyle James' reports of rapid gun fire following the exit of one of his cowhands, and campers' reports of seeing people in camouflage. Other reports of trees being cut down and blocked. June 14th report of Forestry personnel reporting shots. No reports from camp other than from native officers. Wasn't present when ERT went in on Aug. 17 or out on the 18th. Got call in Kelowna from Staff Sgt. Porter on 18th re incident on ERT departure. He returned to 100 Mile House and Porter was there. He was taking over as Operational Commander. Decision made to contact media by Supt. Olfert. Sarich involved in discussion to put it to media. Media announcement made because this was a serious incident. There was a need, it was appropriate to advise the public because they couldn't cordon area off. Hoped to keep public out. At media announcement, they also showed weapons. Made local announcements too of Forestry incident. Local media covered it on small level.

Responsibility was shifting to Kamloops, but Sarich still maintaining communication with other agencies, native groups and operation at a local level. Didn't continue patrols into camp - only into general area through back roads.

Aug. 22nd, he made call to camp but had hard time understanding Percy, so woman took over. He asked intention of leaving land. Told it was their land and he should study the law. Didn't want to debate because deed said it belonged to James Cattle Co. He was prepared to bring deed out to road, but camp wouldn't go. Call ended. Later he sent copy of deed with McLaughlin, Chief of Tribal police in Lilloet area. Copy was of deed of Lot 114. Deed said either Mr. James or cattle company was owner. Aug. 23rd, he called because of news report he heard that someone in camp wanted to speak to them. Person on phone wasn't cooperative and said no one wanted to speak to him. Went to camp on Aug. 24th with Csts. Nordstrum and Hodgkin, both ERT members, so Sarich wouldn't be alone and the two could observe area. They drove along lake and headed to camp area. Media personnel were also following. Media asked to come along and were told to use own discretion. Before hitting bush, they saw two individuals. Sarich stopped and went to fence. Two came over and spoke. They wore bandannas and carried radios. Points spot out on photo where fence disappearsinto bush. Told two that they were there to make contact and wanted to know who leader of the day was so they would know who to ask for. Two wore masks and some camouflage clothing.

L/ MA - asks witness to stand down. Wants disclosures. Just got operational plan but hasn't seen copy prepared by Cpl. Bigland. Should have had that for yesterday when Bigland was on the stand. Same with Staff Sgt. Porter. Today we're hearing about Porter and haven't got anything from him. Re: Bigland, do we have to recall him again? Says he's not prepared to cross-examine this witness until we have everything.

LB - says they never had Bigland's notes. His notes of operational plan was only input and not of final plan that came out of Kamloops. Normally, behind the scenes police info is not important - only their actions. No suggestion that Bigland formulated the plan.

HR - Sarich has come up with generalized rationale for all his actions. There was a watershed policy change because of one phone call of an arrest of a police informer. He drags media along to warfront. Bigland's operational plan is a police document. Anything that changes the whole course of events is important. There is a plan and he wants it today.

ST - More than just filling in. Contacts Special Investigations, builds operational plan, etc. At the end of the day, we will say the police took sides to influence events.

Jones - there may also be political parties involved. How do we know that?

J - not clear to J or defense extent of Bigland's involvement. Directs Crown to disclose extent of Bigland's involvement in formulating plan. LB - doesn't even know if it's in written form. Says there is now also videotape of when Sarich came to the camp. Wants to show it to Sarich and have it marked as evidence.

ST - Mentioned revised witness list missing Cst. Wood. JF told him Wood's subpoena had expired, but now said the Crown wouldn't call him. Wants clarification that subpoenas issued are still alive and valid.

J - says he never cancelled subpoena and is still valid.

MA - Staff Sgt. Porter is a key player and wants order for his notes before he shows up.

LB - doesn't know what MA is talking about. Says the conduct of the accused are not being looked at here as much as the police's conduct. MA just guessing that Porter has files to disclose. J - doesn't feel enough now to warrant that order though that may come. Says defense can come right to Crown for that instead of going through judge. (Harry mouths "we've done that")

LB and Sarich back - Aug. 24/95 visit to camp with 2 ERT members. Went there to talk to persons and to discuss reported incident of helicopter that heard shots. ERT members remained in truck. Media remained behind. Will Thomas was inside encampment on other side of fence. Felt he was video taped on inside as well as by media. Thomas was person inside that videotaped. Franklin approached saying camp wasn't interested in speaking to him. Only wanted Governor General or Queen. Sarich asked if Percy wanted to speak but told no. During this, he heard hollering coming 200-300 yards away in bush. Movement in camp at time. ERT members never got out of vehicle. Only there for 2 minutes. Drove back down fenceline to gate. Debated going through and finally did. Followed lake road to other (west) gate. Went through it and found calf in corral that they released back to herd. Took 10-29 road back to main road and returned. Crown plays video. OJ says Sarich looked a little chunkier then. Sarich smiles. Sarich told to leave after he asks for Glen Denault. Informs camp there will be patrols in the area. Shouting in background. He gets back in car and leaves. MA wants only clip shown marked as evidence with times noted at start and end.

LB - Sarich doesn't know what voices in background were saying though he thought it was a native dialect. On Aug. 25th, Sarich aware that Ovide Mercredi was in camp. Involvement with Mercredi began when he and Montague met Mercredi at 35km mark. Mercredi outlined purpose of visit. The cops left shortly after to return back to 100 Mile House. They had checkpoint set up at this time. Late in afternoon of Aug. 25, Tassell told Sarich they were ready to knock out radio. Sarich said go ahead. Reason was that campers were avowing themselves onto the property like people barricading themselves in. Didn't want supporters calling in and undoing any work that Mercredi might make. Also didn't want additional support to be organized to join their ranks. Aug. 26th, met Mercredi at Red Coach Inn for breakfast for discussion. Told Mercredi they wanted camp to drop weapons and to come out with Mercredi. Staff Sgt. Porter in area now. Porter was setting up Command Post as per operational plan and acting as liaison for Kamloops SubDivision. On Aug. 27th, Hodgkin told him trees had been felled on the road. This was road used for patrols, negotiators and Mercredi. Very important road. Based on report, contacted Ministry of Forestry and requested team to assist in cleaning up road since he didn't feel police could handle saws and Ministry might supply heavy equipment. Security would be provided by police. Informed checkpoint of intentions.

Later in afternoon, he was in residence in 105 Mile House when he heard over portable radio that members had come under fire and were trying to leave. Following this, it showed him what he was up against. Checkpoints were pulled back because they were not equipped to stay. Personnel were increased. Trailer was set up in Detachment Compound, as communication trailer. This was to be able to make contact with camp. They were able to re-establish communications at will. Aug. 28th, he was involved with negotiating with camp. Sgt. Ryan, Dr. Mike Webster, Mercredi there for first communication at 6 pm. Aug. 31st, involved with meeting with Cariboo Tribal Council which was to establish who in families of camp members would be influential to speak with camp "to resolve the matter peacefully". Sept. 1st, further meeting for further strategies in dealing with situation. His position diminished as resources from outside increased. After Sept. 1st, he no longer had significant role until resolution on the 17th. Now mostly assisting. Now well in the hands of Supt. Olfert and others from other areas.

HR - Suggests this was largely a civil matter. Says this was most viable option. HR insists with the police, there are plans. Told Lyle James decision was his. Gave him 2 options: get court order and police could use enforcement order or serve trespass notice and police would support him if there was resistance. Sarich said that as landowner, James could use some force to remove them. Sarich said that weighing the end results, he suggested the civil route was the best. Sarich says 1st option was preferred one. Was not eager to go in on criminal route, civil route was preferable. In his idea, there was a criminal act taking place but didn't act. Says he had to look at the ramifications.

When suggested that a criminal act was taking place and he didn't act on it for 6 months, he denies he didn't act. Though native officers were suggesting a peaceful resolution was possible, he denies pulling them off the case. Says operational plan started Aug. 17-18/95 and at that point, because his and native officers ways weren't working, they had to apply other resources that were available. Resources that were better equipped to deal with the matter.

AB/ HR - Asks about what native officers have already testified to. LB objects. Sarich did not know Cst. Andrew was taken off the case. On Aug. 18/95, he was not at 100 Mile House in morning. Admits Aug. 18th was critical. He had to get his wife to drive him back despite back pains. Returned because covert probe had heard shot. Staff Sgt. Porter in charge of office then. Says radio log is not maintained in his office. Cst. Andrew was not around after the 18th. Native officers were used to gather intelligence. Doesn't recall native officers' reports indicating anything about their removal. Sarich spoke days or weeks later with them about views but doesn't remember any written reports. The file was moved from there to Kamloops and elsewhere so didn't keep up with all reports. Feb. 19/95, Sarich doesn't ever remember face to face talk with Januszczak. Meeting on 19th was with Messner, Lyle James and sons. Never asked people from camp to meeting. Force was discussed. James mentioned a dollar amount required from lawyer that wasn't reasonable (Judge: "they rarely are" - laughter). Sarich thought that perhaps an application could have been done for $1500-2000. Later, he invited media to warn the public that there were armaments in the camp. 2nd time with media, he insists that he reminded media of earlier statements and to take them into consideration. He says police don't just tell media to get out of there anymore. Says Olfert's and Porter comments didn't tell him to turn away media.

There were checkpoints but he doesn't know why media wasn't turned around - "it wasn't the order at the time." Re: June 13/95 eviction notice serving - thought bullwhip was not appropriate. Re: use of 12 men, he didn't think he could tell someone how many supporters he should take. Agrees that because of his position and powers at his disposal, people will note things he says. Agrees that there are pressures from all angles on a commander of a large area. Admits 100 Mile House duties different from past duties.

When asked about swing about from peaceful approach to active ERT approach, says ultimate decision to send in ERT came from Kamloops SubDivision. Admits his unit was used to facilitate getting the ERT members to Lake. Admits he thought Bigland's plan to send in ERT was good idea in circumstances. Says to not send ERT members in was a recipe for disaster. HR suggests that ERT members "floundering through the bush in an area they know nothing of was the real recipe for disaster." Sarich says risks have to be taken sometimes to avert larger risks. HR suggests there is another approach - not go in at all and wait until winter. Sarich says that was a plan initially but it just wasn't working. Disagrees that police were moved by ranchers, politicians and white community. Disagrees that arrest of two illegal fishermen was the only reason they turned around. Denies not knowing Ernie Archie is under witness protection plan. Doesn't know why his charges were stayed. Says he saw Ernie in camp before.

Nature of weaponry and other reports led them to believe fishermen were from camp. HR after asked not to overlap - "Alright, I'll talk louder then." Following Aug. 18th phone call, he produced all the weapons from Aug. 11th arrest. HR suggests this was to create fear in public. Sarich says it was Williams Lake that did this and Supt. Olfert's idea. Sarich said earlier idea had been made to go public, but Sarich didn't agree, but after fisheries incident, Sarich agreed. Olfert responsible. Olfert read main press release and Sarich would answer questions regarding questions of past incidents. Sarich had never given a press conference before. Sarich admits news conference may be seen as media event. For Sarich, this was the first time involved in a media event, setting up command structures or calling in psychologist like Webster from Montana. Sarich thought Webster was used to make up psychological profiles. When asked about background of Webster, Sarich says he was in States. HR reminds Sarich that Webster was at Waco, Texas and asks what happened there but J doesn't want it answered. HR says we all know what happened there so that's what he thinks of experts.

Jury out. GW asks that JoJo be placed back in detention for psychiatric evaluation.

Jones says this all happened when JoJo was placed in confinement before. Doesn't know what drugs they gave him. Everyone knows he was 160 miles away from camp for shooting incident he's being charged with. Crown withheld information until just after they got here. How can we have justice when RCMP and Crown withholds these things. They try to raise these things, the land issues with UN but no one here wants to deal with this because you'll put yourself out of the trough.

Constitution only applied when it's in your favour like in Quebec. They have their sovereignty recognized. Maybe that's why Webster was brought in, to create another Waco. For the New World Order. This will all come out.

J - issues warrant to place JoJo back in detention. As J leaves, Glen Deneault says, "Just remember Josephson, you're no fucking angel, you're not wearing a crown or halo." J tells MA to talk to his client or he'll spend the rest of the trial in custody.

* Day 10: Monday, August 12 * Day 
13: Thursday, August 15 * Day 11: Tuesday, 
August 13 * Day 14: Friday, August 16 * 
Day 12: Wednesday, August 14