* Day 10: Monday, August 12 * Day 13: Thursday, August 15 * Day 11: Tuesday, August 13 * Day 14: Friday, August 16 * Day 12: Wednesday, August 14
Abbreviations used in notes:
DC = Don Campbell (Defense)
SF = Shelagh Franklin (Defense)
GW = George Wool (Defense)
ST = Sheldon Tate (Defense)
MA = Manuel Azevedo (Defense)
HR = Harry Rankin (Defense)
LB = Lance Bernard (Crown)
JF = Jennifer Fawcus (Crown)
J = Judge
Sarich back - (Shadow and Pancho here too!)
ST cont'd - Sarich relied on James' claims that the land was his. Claims there was nothing to contradict this. Wendy McFee called from MLA Zirnhelt's office. Mayfield is Federal Reform. Zirnhelt's office initiated call. Wanted to know status of situation, issue of land claims and if there was Crown land around. Note of 19 June read by Sarich: McFee called RCMP after James called office. Said there is Crown land involved - if that is case, government would have to get involved. Sarich said he got no other report from James or others. When asked why he did nothing to follow up MLA suggestion that land may be Crown, he said they were still trying to get Sundance cancelled. Admits that if it was Crown land, it would have changed things considerably. When ST suggests that Sarich got into bed with James and sided with him, J tells him to change question. Sarich said because of complaints by James, they still tried to stop ceremony. Despite the fact that James owned only 90% of land between Fraser and Hwy 97, he still believed James was telling the truth. Claims he was trying to keep the peace by terminating the ceremony. ST asks if they were on Crown land, why would the Queen try to evict someone practising their spiritual beliefs. J won't let him ask that.
Re: use of native cops - Won't admit he employed them because they had better knowledge of culture and that they knew more. Admits camp didn't trust the white police. But he tried to remain neutral and objective. When suggested that his actions showed a bias in favour of James, he disagrees. Claims ownership of land wasn't an issue so didn't have anyone check. Admits nothing prevented him from checking. After McFee called, James called saying that issue was now a police issue because there was armed people on the road. Says he checked for any legitimate land claims from Band Councils. Says he had info that it was a cult because Shuswap adopted Sundance ceremony and weren't supported by Band Councils or didn't have public support. Tate suggests that similar things were said about the Christians of early Rome, and Sarich replies that he knows nothing of Hare Krishna!!!! His insight into the Sundance limited to knowing that it was a religious ceremony originated in Plains and was adopted by only some groups - wasn't adopted by Shuswap en masse. Says there is fasting for a few days, then rituals at the arbour and sweats. When asked if he didn't know Arbour couldn't be moved for sake of getting closer to town for 7 11 goodies, he said he knew there was a way of putting an arbour to rest and that that should have happened years before. Understood that John Stevens had come to grounds twice before to attempt to cancel ceremonies. Says Agnes Snow was working hard to resolve things. Says people from community had meeting in Alkali Lake that camp members were well aware of through relatives of Percy. Only agenda was to remove Percy. Doesn't believe it was unresolvable because it was eventually resolved when they did leave camp.
19 June - notes that there are radicals at camp that would react with violence if they tried to remove them before the ceremonies. Bruce Mack suggested that Percy is egged on by a few politically motivated individuals. This confirmed by CASNP call from Toronto. Doesn't know if they are political group, but aware of groups in Canada trying to agitate areas, including possibly the camp.
He didn't call them back and other phone calls because there were too many. Press release describing 4 people camping on James land and said police involved in alternate dispute resolution followed by description of forestry shooting. When asked why BC residents should know about forestry incident still under investigation, he says that these days, you don't try to conceal things from the media.
When asked if there was a press release regarding hobble stealing and shots fired, he says no. But he did send Cst. Andrew and Cpl. Bigland to check it out. Re: bullwhip cracking and threats to hang a red nigger, he felt he dealt with it
appropriately by cautioning Lyle James. Says he doesn't recall Heinzl case and the fact an investigator was dispatched for those complaints. Didn't issue press release re: campers telling officers they didn't have any complaints because it wasn't as big an event as forestry incident. Re: shots fired during Tenale horse hobble event, he claims he only got report from Tenale about shots fired. Only later did he learn that shots may have come from people outside of the camp. Doesn't know if anyone checked Tenale's gun. Sarich claims he left it to his investigators. ("A firearm without any projectile recovered doesn't produce any conclusive evidence", he stated regarding Tenale's gun. Does that hold true for the natives too?)
June 20, he set up goals to find more moderate Sundancers to get them to avoid '95 ceremonies. Admits that Sundancers on site are not moderate. Got Band resolution to show that on-site Sundancers had broken away from larger, more moderate group. Sarich hoped larger group would influence on-site group. Says Keray Camille and Agnes Snow were on Band Council and that Rosette differed in views of Sundance.
MB/ ST cont'd. - At time of Band resolution and statement that group of militants and radicals were using site to go to other areas like Adams Lake, he felt people at camp were using Sundance illegitimately. Reported to Kamloops prior to 23 June that Cst. Andrew learned that there were no problems at camp. Though he had no evidence, he maintained that June 14 shots were related to camp. Shooting happened on Crown land, but Sarich doesn't know where. 22 June, he spoke to office of Ministry of Forests, who had taken 5-6 calls from the public that wanted to clear those people out. Can't recall how many calls came into the Detachment with same thoughts. Asked Cpl. Bigland to make operational plan in July. Admits he has to have grounds before affecting arrest, until there were reports from other people to give him grounds like Theiss and Heinzl.
McLauglin is Chief Constable from Lilloet, contacted Sarich. Asked to go in with Mr. Leach from Aboriginal Affairs and was sent in 23rd Aug. Teams were sent in Aug. 18. From Aug. 11-18, he was still sending patrols in. When asked if it isn't standard to issue a police warning, he says that he didn't have any main suspect in mind. Though there was no evidence of weapons, he sent ERT squad in to spend 2 hours in the bush to see if there were weapons in the cabin. In his plan, there was no mention of reconnaissance (recce), only of arrest team. Says that recce is up to ERT. Says he doesn't agree that the people in the camp had a claim on the land - re: Findley, he says officer will assume a position on a grievance to get further investigation. Admits that historic data didn't alter the position and wasn't a color of right argument.
Despite receiving Findley's report, he didn't call Mr. Messner to check out if James owned the land.
GW - Aware that JoJo is alleged to have attempted murder of Wilby. On Aug. 18, while in Kelowna, Sarich knows ERT is in area to find out who is in the camp. Andrew submitting reports every week. On Aug. 18, he can't remember if Andrew told him who was in the camp. Agrees he is duty bound to review occurrence reports. GW shows Sarich report by Andrew.
Sarich can't remember when he read report. Agrees that on 18th, question was who shot Wilby. That report shows that police believed there were 5 people in the camp. Notes Aug. 17, note on report that Doc had left and there were only 5 there. Info came from Antoine Archie to Cst. Andrew. Admits he didn't talk to Antoine following this, nor did he have officers talk to Les Peters (who gave Antoine the message) because he didn't feel it was necessary. Following this report, Andrew wasn't brought back. A week after Aug. 18th, Sarich doesn't remember telling Andrew he was off the case. Doesn't recall telling him he wasn't allowed back in. He never heard any info that Peters was asked about the 5 people since then. On the 19th of Aug., he displayed weapons to associate them with people from the camp. Aware media were organized to come up there. Says Montague and Olfert organized that. Sarich was sitting 2 chairs away from Montague while he read press release. (Sarich has turned so far away from jury and judge, he's almost facing the rear wall now). Doesn't know where Olfert got the info for the shooting. He wasn't there for shooting. GW wants to show press conference video arguing to the J that the police released only selective events to inflame public and to attract people from as far as Oka. Will show that the RCMP manipulated the media which will affect the credibility of their investigation. Freezes video and Sarich identifies Supt. Olfert and Staff Sgt. Porter outdoors. Unknown reporter there too. Video is not the press conference of Aug. 19th at Williams Lake. Agrees gist of Aug. 19Th conference was that Wilby had been shot at. Agrees ERT doesn't wear regular identifiable clothing. Aware that Percy had called in early morning of Aug. 18th, but won't identify it as a complaint.
L/ GW - Re: Percy's call on Aug. 18, he didn't make record of call nor did he investigate Percy's complaint. He didn't call Percy. Said he didn't because it arose from Kamloops SubDivision investigation. Knew call dealt with armed men coming into the camp. Denies complete control over-reacting with Percy's complaint. Denies it was a complaint or that Olfert was in charge of the complaint. Maintains it wasn't a complaint. Doesn't recall that Cst. Wood was officer who took call. Thought it was Tassell. Says calls coming into 100 Mile House are not recorded during day. Evening calls routed to Kamloops and are recorded. Says he hasn't seen a transcription of call. From 19th of Aug., he wasn't in complete control anymore. Refers to Cst. Andrew's report that there were 5 people in camp - Sarich didn't know which date was referred to and never had officer follow up report. Denies he never asked because of fear of exoneration of JoJo. Says numbers in camp were of no value because they fluctuated. His view at time was that it was irrelevant - even after he found out that JoJo was charged. Didn't draw information to investigators. Denies that it was because info would have gone against case they were trying to build. "I would never compromise an investigation."
Sarich's squirming and avoiding direct answers is beginning to elicit chuckles from jury members. Refers to Les Peters - native man. Agrees that in most cases, it isn't hard to find people in small towns. He made no effort to find Les Peters. Andrew wrote SIU (still under investigation) because he was still trying to find him. Won't admit that this was the last entry made by Andrew. GW reads final lines that Kamloops in charge now. Sarich says Bass and Shakey in charge of investigations now.
Re: Aug. 19 press conference warning public - from 19 to 24 Aug., he recalls no patrols to camp. Sarich was first to go into camp and he says media was following at their own discretion. Used media to warn public. Usually media used at local level. Prior to 17 Aug., Sarich didn't want to use media. Following Wilby "incident", he did use media when Olfert said they were going to. Admits that media will attract all types (GW - "like terrorists, tree huggers, hippies").
Aug. 19 press release referred to people in camp as terrorists and criminals. He didn't know who was in the camp and yet used these words. Denies that this would attract terrorists and criminals. (GW keeps calling him "Staff"). Nobody forced Sarich to get in front of cameras and call people terrorists and criminals. Can't remember RCMP officer ever calling natives criminals and terrorists. He denies writing the press release. Denies regret because he never wrote it. Denies calling natives terrorists. Says he has a good rapport with natives in community, but when asked about rapport with Andrew and Wood, he denies it has anything to do with their native origins. Knew the media can be used to represent the police side. Denies "crafting" event for benefit of media. Agrees that they could have closed down road to keep media out if police was concerned about the safety of public. He didn't tell media that Percy had called in complaint, but did tell them about Lyle James' complaint. Keeps saying that he didn't draft press release. Agrees he had conversation with Clem Chappel of BCTV at Detachment a number of times.
On day Clem came in, he flagged down Sarich, who described Chappel as shaken up. Claims patrol to camp was to see if Glen Deneault or anyone in camp wanted to talk to him, to maintain communications and to discuss incident of a helicopter hearing shots. Claims Chappel and Sarich had chance encounter. Chappel told him why he was scared (but didn't share it with the court). Wouldn't agree that the police give info to media so media will give info to police. Chapel told him he didn't get a warm reception from camp. Sarich admits he probably asked who was in the camp. Admits that he was pleased with info like he is pleased when anyone speaks to him. Denies that he didn't report meeting and info from Chappel because he wanted to keep it secret. Denies police establish identity by allowing media into situation and then later, police get search warrant for tapes. Denies having part in making press release, in getting tapes or in the resulting inquiry. Last time he spoke to Clem Chappel was at lunch today. GW notes media hasn't been here all week, but now that Sarich is here, Clem Chappel is. Agrees he didn't hear anything on the news about Andrew or Findley testifying. Claims he was surprised to see Clem here. Says he told Chappel he couldn't speak of case. Agrees that there were RCMP aircraft flying around and on the news. Sarich was working with large media once or twice, more with local media. Denies knowing about Montague putting criminal records on media. Does know that it's illegal to publish youth records without a court order.
Claims he wasn't involved or in control of those reports. Agrees that from time of 19 Aug. - 18 Sept., a person could have snuck in or out of camp without police knowledge. Could have snuck in with weapon and power saw and could have took shots at police.
AB/ Without jury - GW wants missing pages of Andrew's report to show that no further investigation resulted from the report. J will look further into it on Monday.
SF asks for decision on transcripts. J asks for more time. Jury in.
DC - re: use of native officers. Sarich says they were most appropriate. Agrees that it is important to listen to them and read their reports. Says that for the most part, he valued their advice. Admits that one of the native's trip to the lake was cancelled because of events of Aug. 18th. Says that as resources came in from Kamloops, 100 Mile House officers were pulled back. Wouldn't agree that native officers felt they could handle situation through talks to the end. Claims they changed their minds following Aug. 11th fisheries incident. Said that he thought meeting that was planned should have been earlier, but that arrest on 11th Aug. showed that the natives were not bargaining in good faith.
Travelling through countryside with those weapons concerned him. Admits incident was to do with fisheries, that arrest was made out of Gustafsen Lake jurisdiction, that there were no admissions that weapons were connected to Gustafsen Lake. And still, they displayed weapons trying to connect it to camp. Claims talks didn't look good anymore. Said that though there was no evidence usable for court, he felt there was connection to camp and had to take action. DC agrees and suggests that would mean prosecute Ernie Archie - a person whose charges were stayed. DC wonders how putting weapons on TV would further negotiations. Sarich claims there were many attempts and many incidents. When asked about how many conversations he had with Cst. Findley, he can't remember. More than one. When suggested that native officers were moving at a slow speed to a negotiated settlement, but superiors opted for armed approach, Sarich says that the clock was ticking and incidents were mounting, like weapons and attempted murder charges.
Gil Bremner suggested trading land for Crown land, noted on Aug. 3 report by Sarich. Sarich responded to Bremner that it wasn't his place to negotiate and that this should be done with Band. Agnes Snow agreed. Sarich had questioned value of land earlier. Keray Camille told him land was valuable. June 22/95 meeting with John Hill and Ernie Archie, they said there would be no problem moving cattle. James didn't share confidence. Sarich then sent fax on June 23 to E Division telling them that there are gates on the fence and it was questionable the amount of interference it would pose to cattle movement. Sarich says over time, he learned it became more difficult and that ranchhands felt threatened. Agrees that there was a concern in the camp about a police raid. June 23 fax stated that campers weren't bothered and that only problem was from a drunken cowboy. Though at time he didn't know who fired shot at forestry workers, he did hear later that Ernie had commented that shot fired was an accident.
On Feb. 15/95, spoke to Januszczak and said that by going the criminal route, they would likely lose and send the wrong message to those in the camp. Sarich explains that there is possibility that they would lose which could set a precedent. They wanted a long term solution. Wanted James to go civil route. Alternate was trespass or assault by trespass charges. Sarich says the only force he wanted James to use was oral force. DC: "Was there a `nudge nudge, wink wink' agreement that if he tried to throw them off, the police would come in." Sarich: "No, I didn't `nudge nudge, wink wink'." The technical use of force is to hold arm or hand and if there was any resistance, then police could be used to effect arrest. Agrees he wouldn't recommend using 15 cowhands. If 2 people were claiming property and wanted to apply section 41, he finds it hard to answer whether he would find out who owned it. DC leaves it to jury to infer what that means. Became aware that Percy made a claim that land was spiritual and that they had a right to use it. Also aware that Crown land may have been involved, but didn't further investigate it. Doesn't recognize individual claims, only those recognized by the law. Remembers pressure from Cattlemen's Association, Mr. Ostoforoff, Central Interior Loggers Assoc., that logging might suffer, tourism board, Reform Party MP Phil Mayfield who said July 27 "it is illegal and the thugs should be taken out". Some part illegible. Note that evidence is nil. Sarich told that cameras would be rolling so he responded that that would be contrary to James' plans and that this would be political opportunism. When asked about allowing Clem Chappel to follow him in with cameras, Sarich claims that at earlier time, they didn't want to give natives coverage.
Mr. Ostoforoff reported how the case was handled and Sarich sensitive to this. Later, Sarich concerned with media sensationalizing the story. Agrees concern was that it made the RCMP look bad. Said they were left with little choice but to use words like terrorists. Claims he didn't write release. Admits words like that would have an impact on the public. Agrees only information on June 14th forestry incident is that shot was accident and that Ron Tenale's report of shots was inconclusive. Turnbull reported same shots fired. Sarich reports in fax to Kamloops that Tenale may have had accomplice in bush. From this, and Theiss and other campers, and Lac La Hache shooting - all connected to camp - claims this was the logical connection. DC says this was his assumption.
* Day 10: Monday, August 12 * Day 13: Thursday, August 15 * Day 11: Tuesday, August 13 * Day 14: Friday, August 16 * Day 12: Wednesday, August 14